Forum Utilization / Reformatting

[Dominic]

Hey gang,

 

Over the years, forums in general but especially gaming community forums have dwindled as far as their activity / unique nature. Obviously this comes with Discord becoming more popular and pushing features upon features that directly compete with forums like ours. Now, we have no problem utilizing Discord further if need be, however we're curious what you all think about what we should do with the forums and where we should go with the Discord. Should the forums essentially just become a landing page with info about our servers, and threads with essential information? Or should they perhaps stay up but in a much more simplified, dumbed down manner?

 

That also begs the question - what do we do with the Discord, do you want to see it expanded further to replace the features of the forums, or would you prefer a small, easily navigable Discord with just a few channels to speak in? I'd also like to hear your preference vs. what you genuinely believe is the best course of action to promote activity. A few years ago, our forums were averaging 200 visitors a day. Nowadays, it's more around 50. By no means do we plan on shutting down the forums, however with the lower visitor count I'm assuming most people would vote to move our operations over to Discord. I'm just trying to gauge in what capacity you all think would be best for that and what you'd like to see done with this site.

 

Thank you in advance for taking the time to read / respond to this, it truly helps as we rebuild.

[Iota]

the forums should just be archived, no point into turning it into a landing page for the servers, make it redirect to the discord invite. as a simple web-hook and a bit of python code can do this in discord and it looks better then how https://steam-gamers.net/servers/ looks. cut down on some of the channels in the discord. unfortunately the only way to try to bring some type of life into this joint server wise is setting up a cs2 server, as for who would play the server idk u would have to work on finding new players (just advertise a shit ton), but its always worth a try. 

 

now on what to do with the discord. archive or just hard dlt some of the channels, make the “game discussion” category into a discord forum channel. remove “bd-discussion” as its not being using (last msg sent in it was @ 9/13) clean up the roles menu channel there are roles it in that don’t exist anymore / non attainable (the wow, new world, btd, lost ark, lego star wars roles) maybe get rid of the private vc category as a whole as no one uses it anymore thats all discord wise that i can think of as of rn.

 

whether or not you read all this is not my concern, but hopefully my ideas or some of them will be helpful towards this joint.

[jazzy]

Mentioned it in discord but:
We have capped TTT ~3 days/wk on average the last month or two and of the dozen or 2 dozen people who have joined discord on here from that, I do not think a single one of them have joined the forums

[Revenga]

Going off of the current forum layout, I would remove/archive the following sections first, just to get a few things out of the way on the forum, and start making Discord the place for these topics:

• Admin Complaints
• Player Complaints
• Appeal Ban
• Become an Admin
• Each server's section
• Map Suggestions/Removals

Let's start there.  They're not really used these days anyway, so we might as well move the center for these topics there, and make it known in the servers via adverts or whatever, that Discord is the place to report issues, make suggestions, and apply for admin.  Just get the server-specific topics for suggestions/support moved over to Discord.  The off topic sections I guess don't really matter one way or another if they're on the forum, Discord, or both, but I'd like to see all the stuff that relates to the servers in some way moved onto Discord.  IMO let's start there.

 

Details on what to do with the forum sections listed above can be figured out with time, whether they stay read-only or get hidden or whatever.  For the time being it doesn't really matter if they're still visible on the forum and just read-only or whatever, but let's get these discussions at least established in Discord and go from there.  Maybe keep them visible and just change the forum description to "To appeal a ban, please visit our Discord" or something along those lines.  For now that's all just extra details we can get into later if we enable these topics in Discord to start with.

 

I'd probably just use the website/forum at this point more as a dumping ground for information, or at least work towards doing that as things get moved to Discord.  Lists of rules for various games/servers, list of servers, our history, staff, donate, and other important information, like you said.  Whether that's one page, two pages, twenty pages, doesn't really matter as long as it's easy to navigate.  If we use the forum just to post information, I would probably even remove dates being displayed on the posts just so we're not in year 2027 and still reading stuff from 2021... Simply removing the dates on information like that would avoid people thinking the information may not apply anymore or like things never get updated around here.

 

More on Discord...

 

In terms of Discord cleanup/layout/channels, I guess I'd say make it more game server focused.  Right now, TTT is our bread and butter, so make it primarily focused on that server, and as additional servers are added, the layout can always change slightly as needed so we can adapt.  I'll throw a rough layout suggestion out there so I'm not just saying "remove this, remove that".  I'm not super discord savvy and I'm sure I'll leave some things out, and I'm not counting voice channels.  Add a few channels, remove a few, whatever, just for a general layout idea though, here's something.

 

---------------------------

 

COMMUNITY
# announcements
# donate

 

SERVERS
# server-talk
# server-rules
# list-of-servers
# become-an-admin
# map-suggestions
# complaints
# appeal-ban
# suggestions

 

GENERAL
# introduce-yourself
# general
# random
# gaming
# moves-and-tv
# food
# sports
# news-and-politics

 

GAMES
# some-game
# another-game
# something-else
# etc

 

---------------------------

 

Look at our Discord now, there's a lot of quiet channels we can condense/remove for the time being.  I'm thinking maybe if we have fewer channels, there's less stuff to scroll through and it's more straightforward.  No one's posted in the Insurgency channel in 2 months, remove it.  Yes, I know we have a server for it, but with our current state, we don't need a channel for every single thing, keep it simple and don't keep dead channels.  And if you look, everything in that channel is basically off topic and could just as well have been posted in the general chat.  Obviously if the general chat starts having a huge amount of Insurgency talk, then it's probably time to make a dedicated channel for just Insurgency, but that's not the case.  I'd apply that logic to just about any channel.

 

Have a list of servers available to people know what we have, and have information laid out in a simple way that makes some kind of sense, but I think a bunch of active channels is going to look better than a bunch of quiet ones.  That image is easier to maintain with fewer channels and not keeping the quiet ones around.

 

Also whether they're regular text channels or forum channels, or whatever else Discord has, doesn't really matter as long as discussions can be had and info can be easily found.

 

Just some thoughts to consider.  As I said, I suggest making Discord more game server focused, as I think aside from simplifying everything, a small number of servers (and playing on them) need to be the main focus.

[jazzy]

7 hours ago, Revenga said:

 

COMMUNITY
# announcements
# donate

 

SERVERS
# server-talk
# server-rules
# list-of-servers
# become-an-admin
# map-suggestions
# complaints
# appeal-ban
# suggestions

 

GENERAL
# introduce-yourself
# general
# random
# gaming
# moves-and-tv
# food
# sports
# news-and-politics

 

GAMES
# some-game
# another-game
# something-else
# etc

I'd have server-talk just be in a #games specific category like today with #gmod-ttt, etc. I would keep the rules pinned as a message because they are posted in the server anyway when you join (such as via motd). List of s ervers is good, there are discord modules/plugins/whatever tf to show active playercount too

 

I would put admin, complaints, appeals, etc in one single junk box. Basically each form would be simply setup differently via the pinned message (much like dom has the pinned message on how to apply for admin today, just add the other "how-to's" in that). The reason I think this is important is channel fatigue. people do not like joining a discord with 500 channels they never use.

 

I would keep suggestions in a different one and have map suggestions roll into that

 

I would recommend against introduce yourself... Just keep it in general imo. Have the join notifications also be in #general, at least until the discord gets more popular and that becomes spammy.

 

Not sure how I feel about all the general channels.

I think a good way of looking at it is... be reactive, not proactive. Don't make a movies-tv channel until we see the need for one, such as too much media talk in #general.

Forums--

I think we should dump them. For MAJOR events we should have the equivalent of a wordpress (not wordpress please lord) blog on the main website such as when we do mapping competitions and the like, and those can be media relation posts as well. The main landing page should be like so...:

 

It would take me probably 5 hours ish to design something that looks good and has a CMS to post news items. I might need to contract a friend for style points but it would not be bad at all.

 

The main landing page would have the last 1-2 posts of news.
The news tab would have all news + archived news

The servers tab would have a list of all the servers + games.me stat track, etc

Discord would just hotlink to discord.gg/steamgamers

Donate would probably need to be redesigned a little but wouldn't take much

About tab is probably just https://steam-gamers.net/about/

I forgot sourcebans list maybe that can be in the servers tab.

Partners tab can go.... somewhere i guess...

 

 

I wouldn't keep a staff list on the website. I would leave that in discord.

[Karma]

So some of this stuff will be pulled from a recent BD section thread but I would like to put it here to get more opinions/see what people think. I will start with the forums b/c I have less to talk about and it seems we all agree.

Forums: So I think everyone is under the same agreement that forums are a little outdated and most communities, even ones with a large server and player base just use discord as a primary; to give examples: HJune (rust), Blooprint (rust), Hypixel (minecraft), GFL (cs), ext. At this point I don't think the forums should become read only or wiped as they are still used for large form conversations (like this one) or even information about a specific topic (how to play a certain difficult gamemode), they can also be used as a hyperlink from discord if people want full details about an event or other thing we announce; with that said I think that's all they should really be used for. I love @jazzy's idea with the landing page having the few servers we have at the top with a bar at the very top to get to certain locations as needed. Only thing I would add is a big discord button or link of some sort to get people directly there without jumping threw hoops.

 

Discord: This is the one I have put the most thought into recently (and work), I also think it should be done ASAP as it will soon (if not already) become the backbone of our community. Firstly I think we need to get rid of a lot of channels like people mentioned before. I actually brought this up to @Dominicabout a week ago privately as I think it hinders us quite a bit. We are a small enough community where I think having 1-3 basic text channels would be ideal. For discussion channels I would bring it down to: #general, #food, and #bots (bots for the obvious reason, food because it is actually used quite a bit), as for game related channels I would get rid of CS2 as it is not ever used and honestly just keep #gmod-ttt for now. The other channels are unnecessary and as @Revengasaid, we can just add game channels as needed if the specific talk becomes too much for #general.

 

Now for voice channels I think we have too many as well. In my opinion we would be perfectly fine and probably better with 2-3 general voice channels and keep the abilities for "join to create" private voice channels. They are not really used all that often in the first place. The last major thing I would bring up is info/announcement channels; in my opinion we have too many of these for no reason. Rules-and-info and roles-menu can be merged into one channel just for bot issues (they are necessary), announcements and server-notifications can also be merged into one (we use server specific roles tags when calling for sever notifications anyway), mind you this also could just be done in the #gmod-ttt channel. @Iotamentioned this but the #bd-discussion channel is not used so we can remove that, as well as combining community-input, suggestions, map suggestions, and anything else that falls into that category in one suggestion "thread" channel. We can keep admin applications separate but appeal bans, admin complaints, and player complaints can all be done with help tickets for the time being as we really don't get any. 

 

There are some other things that also need to be done on the backend of discord as they were added when we were a much larger community and needed more bots, moderators, and also needed to log certain chat things. I will probably go threw this on my own time but just for the sake of transparency, we have 50 or so roles and random bots in the discord that need cleaned up; this causes random permission issues with channel categories and more that we just don't need at our current community size.

[Ejivis]

I'll keep it short and to the point as I'm out of town on mobile.  

 

I don't believe the forums should change yet.  CS2 is just starting up. Community servers haven't even been fully implemented and utilized at all.  This is where new members would come from.  I think it would be the wrong decision to change the forums at this moment. Forum activity could still make a comeback once CS2 community servers are revived. 

 

I do believe more could be done on discord, but I do not personally want discord to become a replacement of the forums.  That would be too many discord channels.  I think what we have now could be cleaned up a little and a couple more text channels could be added (like expanding random to multiple channels like memes, outdoors, technology, music, etc) to replace it. Also flavor of the month channels would be cool.  But, at the end of the day that is minor tweaks.

[electricboogaloo]

Why does the board persist in managing this place without the humility to either hand it over to someone else or shut it down entirely? It's a waste of your own time, and soon it'll only be your time to waste because you've already managed to chop the community down to nearly nothing. Most of these people who used to work for free just for vanity's sake or to be a piece of shit have no one to even bully or impress, so many of them are basically in a catatonic state over whether they'll actually want to help. 

 

It's apparent that most people here either lack understanding of what is wrong or are unwilling to resolve the issues. I doubt there's anyone suitable to take over, considering the current members. A quick look at the staff page shows those with technical skills often lack emotional maturity, and those who are slightly invested are mostly driven by nostalgia and ego. Is Caution content with this community's decline as long as he retains control? If there's no interest in creating servers, hosting friendly voice chats, or fostering a welcoming environment, why keep this community alive, except for the same self-serving reasons that contributed to its downfall? This is a serious inquiry.

 

The constant over-planning, bullshit drama show, and implementing drastic changes for their own sake are futile. Micro-management and ineffective leadership have played a significant part in the community's decline. It's telling that after more than a decade, few are willing to step up and save this place, and those who try are often insincere. When the servers were thriving, forums active, and voice chats busy, that was when the community truly worked. It's no surprise that many of those same effective members were banned or left, due to failed leadership and others who were either incompetent or disruptive that wouldn't be removed or manipulated ownership / higher-ups.

 

Persisting with inadequate teams, who lack the board's confidence (Caution and Dominic do not respect you, they most likely make fun of you in private) and fail to meet expectations, won't save this community. Instead of drafting pointless forum posts and seeking feedback, which only highlights desperation, the board should take tangible actions. Create a server, organize an event, or pass the leadership to someone capable. Caution and Dominic do not have the intelligence or emotional maturity to continue to run this place. The way both of them act will permanently be like there is a never-ending of supply of people to be shitty towards.

 

The response as always will for sure be a puzzling "what do you want us to do", which has always been make a server, then make another, run events, interact with people through here and Discord. The reason the community is dead is because you are not willing to do these things and it's for that reason you should either close it, pass it to the next class president, or leave entirely. 

 

[Dominic]

24 minutes ago, electricboogaloo said:

Why does the board persist in managing this place without the humility to either hand it over to someone else or shut it down entirely? It's a waste of your own time, and soon it'll only be your time to waste because you've already managed to chop the community down to nearly nothing. Most of these people who used to work for free just for vanity's sake or to be a piece of shit have no one to even bully or impress, so many of them are basically in a catatonic state over whether they'll actually want to help. 

 

It's apparent that most people here either lack understanding of what is wrong or are unwilling to resolve the issues. I doubt there's anyone suitable to take over, considering the current members. A quick look at the staff page shows those with technical skills often lack emotional maturity, and those who are slightly invested are mostly driven by nostalgia and ego. Is Caution content with this community's decline as long as he retains control? If there's no interest in creating servers, hosting friendly voice chats, or fostering a welcoming environment, why keep this community alive, except for the same self-serving reasons that contributed to its downfall? This is a serious inquiry.

 

The constant over-planning, bullshit drama show, and implementing drastic changes for their own sake are futile. Micro-management and ineffective leadership have played a significant part in the community's decline. It's telling that after more than a decade, few are willing to step up and save this place, and those who try are often insincere. When the servers were thriving, forums active, and voice chats busy, that was when the community truly worked. It's no surprise that many of those same effective members were banned or left, due to failed leadership and others who were either incompetent or disruptive that wouldn't be removed or manipulated ownership / higher-ups.

 

Persisting with inadequate teams, who lack the board's confidence (Caution and Dominic do not respect you, they most likely make fun of you in private) and fail to meet expectations, won't save this community. Instead of drafting pointless forum posts and seeking feedback, which only highlights desperation, the board should take tangible actions. Create a server, organize an event, or pass the leadership to someone capable. Caution and Dominic do not have the intelligence or emotional maturity to continue to run this place. The way both of them act will permanently be like there is a never-ending of supply of people to be shitty towards.

 

The response as always will for sure be a puzzling "what do you want us to do", which has always been make a server, then make another, run events, interact with people through here and Discord. The reason the community is dead is because you are not willing to do these things and it's for that reason you should either close it, pass it to the next class president, or leave entirely. 

 

 

Looooooooool I'll entertain you and your comment when you're man enough to hop off your VPN and announce to everyone which butthurt old staff member you are 

 

I'll leave the above post up because obviously I welcome criticism with open arms, I just prefer criticism that comes from a good place and not an inherently and obviously biased place. For instance, @PokeI appreciate you using your voice unapologetically in the Discord recently. Lying and beating around the bush does nothing for anyone. I am admittedly still busy finishing up college in recent weeks, however things are slowly getting easier for me. This whole Discord / forum thing is going to get taken care of swiftly, as Discord work is already in progress on @Karma and I's end. We'd appreciate more and more comments on this though, as regardless of the work we're doing on the server side of things currently, this is still just as important. 

 

Thanks for everything thus far, though. Good read. Will probably respond in a better way at some point.

[Phoenix_]

Strictly regarding the forums:

 

It's time to let it go. I say either move the forums to a read-only archive or just completely shut it down. The threads feature of Discord more or less has become the new "forums" per-se. Yes, online forums still exist but their activity is slim pickings compared to even 5 years ago. Move to a full-Discord model. For example, the Lethal Company Modding Discord server has chat sections that are exclusively threads that essentially function like a forum, and I think that's the best model to have moving forward. It's modern, simple, and Discord is free/much more affordable for premium features annually compared to a website hosting service. Putting resources into making Discord bots to add features to the servers/making the server grow is a much more valuable time and resource dump than updating an online forum that barely gets clicks and won't contribute to real community growth (no shade to the work of the TAs over the years that have made this website their labor of love). 

 

Regarding the stuff @electricboogaloosaid:

 

Even if it is someone hiding behind a VPN, there are definitely good and valid criticisms here. The stagnation at the very top has heavily contributed to the downfall of this community. Caution has done an enormous amount of work during his tenure, but everyone has their time to let it go. I believe that time has very much passed long ago. Who should take over? I don't really know, honestly as long as it's someone active with an IQ above 100, I think they'd set the community in the right direction simply by being a fresh face in charge who engages with the community. 

 

Looking back on things, the internal shit-slinging has existed for so long within the staff ranks, and it ultimately comes down to the group that talks shit about other people and groups that are simply in higher positions end up on top. Every group of friends within staff have gone off into their own individual cliques and talked shit about other people and it just fosters resentment within the staff ranks and causes rank instability and slows  growth. I think at one point when CA was still a rank and I was in the higher-up staff, I watched/was part of a complete turn-over of the CA rank within 6-7 weeks. 

 

Hell, even now I can remember higher-up staff talking shit (whether in a meeting, over discord, pms, etc.) about 4 current AO+... and it wouldn't entirely shock me if shit is still talked in private behind each others backs.

 

Note: I am not innocent of this, like I said, we ALL did it. The higher I got in the ranks, the more shit that was talked. In the time, I didn't care and contributed to it, but looking back it's a really terrible look for a community to talk shit on fellow staff members behind their backs and sow resentment, often times with no real basis beyond just "fuck this dude because he's not in our little group". 

 

Regarding the higher-of-higher ups:

 

I'll keep this one short and simple. Caution has sent two messages in the SG discord in the last 3 months. An owner who interacts with the community they own that little should not be in charge. Plain and simple. 

 

Dominic, you're a busy college student with bigger shit to focus on than a dying community that has no real impact on your life. Get your degree and make professional moves for yourself.

 

Point being, the two with the most power in the community should not be in charge. These two will not put the community in the right direction, as they simply do not dedicate/have the time to dedicate to this community to foster growth or a healthy and welcoming environment. No shade, just stating how I see it. There's nothing wrong with not having the time, you're both busy, but understand nothing will change or improve until you're both no longer the top guys.

 

Thanks for coming to my ted talk.