Remove this map from the server? 27 members have voted

[Ahoy]

To be honest, I don't mind spy vs spy probably because I haven't played it so long. but I wouldn't remove it. It has it's problems but that's what happens with overplayed maps. So No

[Metal]

I'm 50/50, So this is how I see it.

 

The map is definitely dated however it does give us enough to rebel, but the only weapon we can get in time is the weapon in the tunnels.

As for the pistol in the death crate, there is no way we can get there before the CT's unless they forget about it.

 

As Stunning said, Each room is a deathgame and all we do is sit in each room waiting.

Even for climb, we cannot use climb since they say stay in water.

 

Either way, I'm 50/50

[SL4DE]

Goddamn, it's a beautiful night to be using a keyboard again. Now that I'm finally done rebuilding my PC, I can make a decent post~

 

This map has been popular for the longest time. Honestly, I believe it's because when the map vote plugin popup appears, everyone is sick of seeing it, and they just spam the 4 through 6 keys. I've had many players of the server admit to this. Because of the plugin's awful randomizing, usually the same few maps appear over and over again. I believe that this map is played on so often because people are too lazy to actually take a moment and vote for a map. Newer players don't even know most of the maps, and it's usually only the regulars the put in a decent vote from my perspective. The case of admitted laziness is

what caused me to (yet again) visit our well-known Spy_vs_Spy map earlier today.*

 

The map overall is very gridlined and square, with almost nothing being perpendicular with most objects on the map. This forces a LOT of 90 degree corners that makes combat very stale, and most engagements favor the unit who can peak corners, and allows almost no objects to use as partial cover. The visuals on the map are horribly bland, and nearly greyscale, with the exception of grass, fences, and water outside. This allows even the newest of players to spot another enemy from across the map if you're indoors. It also allows you to register objects and "blood splatters" quickly as well, allow you to witness where, and from your friends or enemies have been shot or killed at.

 

As for entities(?) on the map, such as the "big cage", any door that slides vertically to open or close, and the various deathgames, they are low quality, and seems unpolished. It seems like this map is long overdue for an update that makes certain games more enjoyable, a big one being dodgeball, and climb. But, I'll get back to that in a moment. The big cage has "spots" around it, they vary in size, and in some spots, you can shoot through with a handgun/shotgun, some you can shoot with only a rifle, and some cannot shoot through at all. It is horribly inconsistent, but it may have been made that way on purpose. I highly doubt it though, as the only way you will be able to tell the "penetrative material" from the other spots is unknown, unless you fire upon it.

 

The vertical doors will easily kill anyone who gets caught within a couple seconds, you have the ability to move yourself between the door and the bulkhead, but you need to be quick, and it still damages armor, and health. You are allowed a bit more time with armor as it chews through armor before effecting health. I've seen many T's die this way, as a CT will close cell doors as T's leave their cells. Sometimes it is an accident, other times, it is not. As an admin, it can a difficult call. (Freekilling, Teamkilling)

 

The deathgames, and not-so-deadlygames, need a bit of rework as well, but I will give a bit of praise torwards the Traitor deathgame as it's something I haven't seen on any other map. However, the rooms only allow a very small amount of players, and it is easy to kill a player if you try to cram too many bodies into on small room when the door shuts. It's causes wasted time, and unnecessary deaths. Not to mention I've heard the entire server uproar on who should be the traitor. As for it being positive or negative outcome of the deathgame, I'm uncertain.

 

Dodgeball on this map is silly, as the ball is scripted to be so heavy that it is barely movable with a knife, but will easily get knocked around by gunfire. The dodgeball itself causes damage, not the force of impact, so many unknowing T's have died touching the ball attempting to push/knock it around. This amusing, but inpractical, and not that fun.

 

If the most popular order isn't "All T's have a freeday outside, not inside, no inside hallways." then it is "All T's go to climb, be in the water." This climb is so cramped it's almost impossible to shoot a rogue T in the mist of all his prisoner friends at the bottom. But that's not a main concern, there is not a lot of space down there, and a lot of prisoners enjoy using the teleporter at the bottom of climb/in the water. The teleporter works well, however, it always causes players to get stuck, and with the !stuck command, it can lead to one player pushing another into the teleporter, causing bad things to happen. Such as getting shot.

 

But, enough about the games, let me discuss briefly on what others have said in this thread about vent placements, routes, and map layout in general. This map to me feels waaaay too small for 20+ players. The cell numbers only go up to 11, so I imagine the creator of this map wasn't anticipating more prisoners then 11, but I'm going to put that aside, as I' would like to focus on how we use the servers, and how it is played.

 

The vents and their routes are not spaced apart enough, they follow as same general path, and randomly some vents will completely refuse to break some rounds! These unbreakable vents are then exploited by others by tossing a grenade on them, causing everyone to hear a horrible noise. It's gotten so horrible on days that I've had to ban a player for a short amount of time for refusing to listen after I just got done kicking him. That alone should spark the developer to take action, and make a quick fix.

 

Hidden weapons and secrets. This is what makes PB maps interesting. Teleporters, vents, hidden weapon caches, easy tricks and areas you can go into that can spark the beginning of a prisoner riot: It's exceptionally limited on this map. There is one teleporter that is T usage only in the Big Box behind big cage, the box itself can be used to hide in, as it has a one way window with limited view in the front. The only weapons obtainable (Other than armory...) is under cell 7 in a vent (random spawn: Zeus, P250, Scout, maybe others), Outside behind a 2D bush in the corner (Zeus), in a hidden area above deathcrate (P250, smoke grenade), and literally on the deck in breakfloor near the controls (P250), and random grenades, and only grenades in cells. That's a very low amount of firepower compared to every other map I've experienced on PB servers. So, if you're in a situation, A VERY COMMON EXAMPLE BEING "Freeday outside, no inside, no inside hallways.", unless you catch a retarded CT walking outside, the only weaponry in that area is a one-shot Zeus. It's enough to spark something, but most likely than not, the only two exits from outside are always camped, and anyone who attempts to leave dies without a fighting chance. It's a Horribly CT sided scenario, and I've seen it abused way too often.

 

Overall, the map is okay at best, it's great for those learning how to play JB to play on, but, for everyone else, it's lackluster shows: It feels like a map-in-testing with all the flaws with it. It's a decent map, but it grows old at a remarkable rate. When I first saw the mapname, I was secretly praying that is would be Mad Magazines Spy VS Spy, and when it finally loaded, and I got in, I was very pleased with the theme. Being someone who has read a lot of media, and played a lot of games with Spy VS Spy, I really enjoyed the theme: The spies everywhere, the fonts, the music playing when you're in the CT spawn, and the silly smoke grenade "masks" you find around the map. It's not a terrible theme, but I'm disappointed that it isn't used on a better made map.

 

HOWEVER, as much as I hate playing on this map, I feel like if the developer put some more work into this map, tweaking some objects, perhaps making a larger map more suited for 20+ players, it could be a lot more enjoyable for everyone. But, unfortunately, to my knowledge, this has not happened yet, causing me to vote against this map. The map should have had a lot of changes with as much manhours have been played in this map, but it's stale and unupdated.

 

If the developer makes major changes to the map, (This does not include the Christmas version of the map) I'd be more than willing to throw it on the forums, and drag @nuclearonion with me to test it out. Hell, I wouldn't even mind trying to add a few things myself with the Dev's permission. But, until then, I'm content with letting this one go.

 

 

TL;DR I voted yes for removal. If you keep calling freedays 3+ rounds in a row, you're gonna have a bad time. We need more Spy VS Spy themed maps.

 

 

 

(Boop notifcation for @Wawa, and @Goku, because wall of text)

[Souce Boss]

Did someone call for an elite 10? I voted No for this because this map is unique on its own. There is no other map like it. Some of the reasons that have been mentioned above, I have seen rarely (CTs camping). I feel this map is small enough so the Ts can gang up and knife a bunch of CTs. This also helps Ts use the weapons provided, such as taser, due to the limited room the CTs have. HOWEVER, I do agree with some of the points mentioned out. This map makes a lot of CTs say freeday outside from my own personal experience. They dont camp that much, but when they do, they usually camp outside hallway and vents, not giving a lot of rooms for Ts to rebel, as those ways are the only paths to armory. There's not much to do here on this map. On why I voted No, I feel with proper orders, the CTs can make it an enjoyable experience for the Ts. Whenever I play CT, I almost never give freedays on this map. When I do, I only do it if there was a freekiller, so it can make up for last round for the people that got freekilled. If I do it for everyone, I feel some CTs like to camp the vents, not giving the chance for Ts to rebel. I want the Ts to rebel so I lead them to places such as deathcrate, (p250 and vent to armory), or outside (taser and vent to armory), and do some orders there. Finally, there is a reason why Spy vs Spy is one of the most played maps. If the group of players currently don't want to play SvS, they can vote for something else, that's why we have rtv. As Wawa pointed out in his post, the other popular maps we have are lego, clouds, vip, razor, etc. Vip and razor are basically the same layout but with slight changes. People do seem to like the razor setup, but in reality, those maps are the same. We need unique maps on the server, SvS is not the worst map that we have.

 

TL;DR From my play time, CTs don't camp that often. Ts have a lot of room to rebel if they are inside because the short amount of space CTs have, they can get knifed by a big gang of Ts. With proper orders, map is pretty fun. We have rtv if players don't like this map (but most of the time they do because SvS is one of the most popular maps)

[Luke]

Spy vs spy is in my opinion not the greatest of maps, however a map that I do enjoy and would prefer to be kept in the map pool. Most people have covered most of the points so I'll keep this short. (+ I'm on phone)

 

To put it simply this vote and poll is very biased. Before I touch on that I will first comment on the ct winrate. I simply agree that yes, this map should be very ct favoured and very hard to rebell on. However this map seemingly above all others I find that t's seems to win a large amount. Perhaps this is just the luck of personal experience and my experience doesn't follow the general trend, yet from my own viewpoint t's, with myself included seem to have no issue rebelling on this map. In fact this map is where I seem to do the easiest rebelling as a t.

 

As for what I said about this poll being biased, this can be easily explained. I think you guys need to take a step back and realise who plays on the steam gamers JB server. A very large amount of the player base seems to be very inactive on the forums or not be on the forums at all. A certain portion of this is newish players to either our servers or JB overall. As a map spy vs spy is one of the easiest maps to understand the entire of. This doesn't necessarily make it a bad map or a particularly good map, however it makes in very noob friendly. This is why the map gets played. There is no denying its positive popularity not any way to deny the negative polularity. Newbie's ( I suppose you could suggest like myself) enjoy playing a map they know very well and therefor vote for it.

 

To explain the bias of this poll, with many of these players that actually make up the voters of this map not actually being active on the forums this poll is unfair. Although I personally believe this map should stay, I'm not necessarily saying it would bother me if it went, I just think a new perspective from the point of our general gamer who stumbles onto our server. As a community we want to grow and continue growing inviting new players as old one begin to have other commitments. This map in my opinion bridges the new players towards an easier understanding of JB making them stay. After one play on this map they vote for it every time.

 

This poll will consist mostly (not all) of more experienced players that prefer to delve within the larger more complex maps. However you have to consider who else plays on the servers before you remove a map from a vote that consists of people who (if following the general trend) will be more likely to want this map removed.

 

I personally believe this map should stay and think that people are not giving respect to the opinions of the general community that doesn't come in the forums. However seeing it go would not bother me and the argument for it going is also a strong one. Perhaps the views of the long term members should be taken much over the newer members that enjoy this map, perhaps not.

 

(Just as a side note, almost all of the death game rooms (except dodgeball and perhaps some others) are just as useful as a disco. Where in disco it is simply a room with music in these death games people can be told to go to the rooms without actually being told to do the death game itself. With some

Of these death games such as 'death crate' having a secret and a vent. I believe these rooms are just as useful as disco and should not just be disregarded as only being used as a death game.)

 

Thank you for reading.

[BlackWhite]

I've always questioned if I should just remove this myself, but really in the long run people vote for it constantly. I can argue that people just spam 4 to vote for the map, but in reality that can't be the case since more maps would be voted for, at least I assume that.

 

When the map is being tested and is put in to the rotation, i have voice similar questions to Onion as well. But I have seen many people voting it while some of the people doesn't like it due to it's map nature.

 

However, if you don't give death games to the Ts, they will often say "Lets us do something" despite they are on disco, soccer, or pool. I am well aware about CT and T killed by the door but if ct is not spamming the button, no one will get hurt by the door.

 

Personally I think this map should be remove, or reworked since the only play Ts can go is climb soccer or gun toss. But if this map is the reason of population or people likes to play on it, i don't why we should remove it.

 

About the CT camping outside or camping inside, most of the time i see Ct being overwhelmed by Ts despite of having guns advantages. Beside, they were not suppose to give 3x freedays, there should be no ways for freedays all the time when the rule state no repeatable orders.

 

About what @LukeN said, i am agreed what he have said, this map is very noob friendly because it's small, and teach them how to play death games.

 

Also, Why the wall of text god damn it.

[Luke]

I like how I started with saying I'd keep this short. Then I realised I was in a 3 hour car journey and got carried away xD

[Elemental]

Wow, don't really have time to read through all these long ass posts atm, but I noticed I was asked for an opinion

 

Welp, my opinion is, dont remove this map.

People gladly vote for this map when it comes up in the list, people enjoy playing this map, even though its mostly deathgames.

 

I usually play as CT in this map, and manage to have pretty fun rounds in this map.

Usually I'd start off with "If you want to play a deathgame, go to X, otherwise, go outside" giving them plenty of things to do outside and a fairly decent chance at rebelling, as theres a vent and a tazer outside, whilst doing a fun deathgame with the people inside.

 

Usually people sign up for the deathgames on spy_vs_spy (Which I don't see ppl doing on alot of other maps) and we usually have a great time on this map.

 

So no, I don't think this map should be removed

[Sagittarius]

personally i hate this map the only thing on it is deathgames and when you are not doing them you are mostly doing nothing on soccer and rebelling is pointless cause there is always like 5 CTs camping the vents

[Strawberry]

in all im in favour of keeping this map, mostly because i feel its easy to maintan fro medium skill leveled CT, the bad ones are still gonna have a bad time. that is because rebelling alone could be difficult. 'however i also feel the map focusing alot on deathgames, wich limmits the orders. when this happens there is extremly limmited rebel options if there is a decent amount of functioning ct's.

 

ive noticed that some induviduals tend to exploit some of the secrets, that can be annoying as F.

as well as that normal secret / vent camping, that makes rebelling close to impossible. and the population may drop.

 

The map is really good, its just that we cant play it the way its ment to be played due to our no forced deathgame rule.

 

I want it to be on rotation but i stand 60/40 towards that.