Remove ZE Grenade Spam

[Bill Smauz]

In the current state of ZE playing as the zombie is one of the more frustrating experiences and it stems from the constant use of HE grenades and their napalm effect (negev spam is another issue entirely but that's besides the point of this thread). ZE maps, in general, focus on holding chokepoints for certain duration of time but the threat of the zombies breaking these points are ultimately negated by the frequent use of napalm grenades to not only push the zombies back but also to slow them down for a certain period (the napalm effect of the grenades). This effect can be repeated numerous times because at any point in the level there may be 20-40 humans alive, each with a capacity of 2 grenades (1 upon spawning and an additional with the "!he" command), with a total of 40-80 grenades.

 

I believe, in its current implementation, that grenades are overpowered simply because they can be resupplied at any point and that their effects can be repeated any number of times. The menace of the zombies is a mute point and chokepoints can be held with relative ease. Some classic ZE maps, ones that don't focus on bosses or skilled movements (i.e., surf or jumping puzzles), but ones that focus on a concerted effort to hold chokepoints, are rendered too easy for the humans to win. In fact, I believe it's a fair assumption that in most maps, more humans lose to lasers/bosses/inability to surf/incorrect jumps (skyathletic, froyo) than they do to zombies.

As an aside, I remember during the old days of CSS ZE when using a grenade was a gamble; you could throw a nade to slow the zombie horde or a zombie could position themselves in front of the grenade to get boosted forward towards the humans (failnade).

 

Here are my potential solutions to this issue:

*remove the ability to resupply your nade after its use (remove !he)

*decrease the duration of the napalm effect

*allow zombies to have a grace period in between napalm effects (if a zombie had just been set ablaze, have a cooldown period where the zombie can not be napalm'ed again for a certain amount of time)

*trade-off between a players ability to have a negev or a grenade (if a player wants to have a negev then they won't be able to purchase a nade)

*additional zclass for a zombie with immunity to napalm but increased knockback/slower run speed

 

I have no idea if some of these suggestions are possible, within the coding of the server plugin, but I'm sure removing !he is, at the very least.

 

You could choose to implement one of these suggestions or any combination of.

I also understand that some longer maps may make it a necessity, in terms of balance, to have an extra nade (frostdrake comes to mind) but perhaps the settings could be adjusted on a case-by-case basis. This will also make it extremely difficult for a small group of humans to be able to complete the map (15 or less) but wouldn't this make ZE more fun? It would mean players would be more focused on teamwork and keeping their fellow compatriots alive, humans should lose if too many of them have been lost.

 

Thoughts? @Paralyzed @Leon Mordecai

[GG EZ]

Honestly it's a great idea and I 100 percent agree on the lowering of the slow on the grenade but like 70 percent of the humans don't even throw their names unless it's a boss fight and people constantly ask them to throw their nades. Also the with the 50/50 grenade back then when this was still in ze for csgo people would either constantly fuck up and just completely destroy the team every round or a griefer would know a part of the map where you can throw the nade and it would have the zombies boosted boosted forward everytime so the humans would never win. For example back then when there was knockback whenever we played fapescape we would always get fucked over since everytime we got to the part where we would have to defend at the floating part people would just throw nades so the zombies would just fly forward and it was not like a small ass jump it was like from a small step of man and another big ass step for man kind. Lastly the most important reason and the only reason why I think this should 100 percent stay is because ze players are just super bad I don't mean like every player on ze is bad but I mean majority of the ze players don't know what the fuck they doing half the time

[Bill Smauz]

Just to make it clear, I'm not advocating for the grenade physics to b reverted back to their CSS era properties. Failnades caused more headaches than they were fun. The suggestions I give later in my OP are just some of the ideas I had in terms of the balancing of nades.

Even if half the team don't use their nades, you're still facing so many, especially with the ability to resupply. But just because players might not use their nades or might be bad isn't a good excuse to retain the current implementation of nades; human teams will always benefit from a strong leader to guide players through a level, and it makes teamwork more compulsory.

[All Ts]

Sounds like a good idea to bump them down a little bit rather than a complete smash into the ground.

 

10 points for not making a whiny bitch thread- states a problem, states how he wants it fixed.

 

@Bill Smauz is the real OG.

[Crawfish]

Honestly it's a great idea and I 100 percent agree on the lowering of the slow on the grenade but like 70 percent of the humans don't even throw their names unless it's a boss fight and people constantly ask them to throw their nades.

^this is the truth

 

I agree the nades we have on our server are pretty overpowered atm.

I wouldn't be opposed to reducing the power of nades or limiting it to just the one that you start with.

[Evol]

Sounds like a good idea to bump them down a little bit rather than a complete smash into the ground.

 

10 points for not making a whiny bitch thread- states a problem, states how he wants it fixed.

 

@Bill Smauz is the real OG.

 

^pretty much i agree with all ts

[Wesker]

^this is the truth

 

I agree the nades we have on our server are pretty overpowered atm.

I wouldn't be opposed to reducing the power of nades or limiting it to just the one that you start with.

 

They are pretty much balanced to only having one, them being overpowered as a one time strategic item. Having !he allows 120 nades total which is a bit much.

 

I agree with all of @Bill Smauz points except grace period (Nades become less effective if used at the same time) & Negev trade-off because it was severely nerfed and no longer the best weapon.

 

Class immunity would have to be handled very carefully else everyone would choose that class.

[Akumu]

Lets just make it one nade and bring back Molotovs

 

Other than that, the nades we had now are overpowered, the nades we had before were even dumber (Stamina nades, Never again). Being first zombie or just being a zombie in general is painful, something you do not want to experience because of the nadse. You always get really close to the humans only too see that one nade stop an entire horde of zombies for a solid 3-5 seconds. The nades should either knock them back and slow for a little bit, or just ignite them for longer without any knockback.

[diryathing]

I remember asking about some maps that need the second grenade on certain maps for balance wise on a previous thread.

I would rather put two grenades on either all maps or no maps at that point if we're going to pick and choose what maps to give a certain amount.

 

I don't know if the opinion changed since its been a year already. @Paralyzed @Leon Mordecai

 

Agreeing with the fact nades are op (as a leader, I literally have a strat on death valley where players doorhug and spam grenades until the doors open). I agree with reducing the napalm effect duration because asides from the large slow effect, I really hate the particles. If there are 40 zombies on fire it gives me a lot of lag and thats annoying (but thats for another thread). I would like to keep 2 grenades since the starter now more often play maps that are longer. I dont know if this could be a way to nerf the grenade but what about reducing the explosion radius?

[Bill Smauz]

Another interesting idea would be to allow two grenade types: an incendiary one (molotov) and knockback one (HE). Allow players to equip one type of grenade and no ability to resupply through the !zmarket. Players could diversify their loadout depending on which grenade functions best for the map. Molotovs would apply the familiar napalm effect and HE would be used for knockback purposes without the napalm effect. This of course would be harder to implement and would require more experimentation to perfect.

 

As it stands, I believe the best mode of action would be to remove resupply of grenades via "!he" and to decrease the napalm/slow duration from 5 seconds -> 3 seconds.