Redefining which vents are KOS on Jailbreak

[fantastic]

There are many vents on JB, some of which make sense for them to be KOS, others not. My definition of a "vent" in this case is a breakable texture (wall, vent, etc.) which lead from one area to another without use of teleportation.

 

Examples of vents that are KOS and make sense:

 

• ba_jail_minecraftparty_v6: vent from last cell to medic
  This makes sense because the vent takes you to an area outside of your cell before cell doors are open, giving you an advantage over the CTs.
  
• Space Jail: vent in cells which lead to armory
  This makes sense because it's a secret which leads to armory, giving you an advantage.
  

 

But there are some vents which don't make sense as KOS areas:

 

• ba_mlcastle_se: vent between cells
  This doesn't make sense because it offers no advantages other than letting you hop between cells before cell doors are open. It doesn't lead to any KOS area, and it doesn't make a CT's job harder to keep track of Ts. However, because it's technically a secret, some CTs have been killing Ts for using this.
  
• Spy VS. Spy: vent in cell which gives you a smoke and a spy mask Removed because this is a secret, not a vent
  This doesn't make sense because it's not taking you outside of your cell nor is the area inside a KOS area. Furthermore, it does not hinder a CTs ability to keep track of Ts. Indeed, I have never seen any CT shoot/kill a T who has gotten the smoke from this "secret" through the vent.
  

 

Let's take a look at another KOS area, teleporters. Most teleporters are KOS except for ones which absolutely cannot be avoided, like the teleporter between first and second island on Clouds. If you take a look at the rules, the very bottom of the exception which defines which teleporters aren't KOS states:

 

"The main issue with teleporters, is they typically teleport you away from the CTs in a way that makes it hard to keep track of you. Use common sense to determine if that teleporter should be KOS, and if in doubt ask here".

 

My suggestion is that instead of making all vents KOS, change the rule to match those of teleporters. Specifically:

 

Vents which lead to areas that are KOS or areas that make a CTs job harder to keep track of you are KOS.

 

To the best of my knowledge, vents that are very clearly KOS are not affected by this rule change, and vents that are in the grey area such as those defined above will become not KOS.

 

Thoughts and discussion below is encouraged thanks!

[Andrew]

I just don’t see the problem. For one, I have literally never been killed for breaking a wall into another cell or to get a smoke. Maybe some other people have but personally that’s never happened. Also, if we make it so vents are only KOS if they lead to a KOS area, what about all the vents that don’t lead to one. I feel like this would only further complicate things.

[Dominic]

Nice thread, interested to see what everyone has to say about this. I have some initial thoughts right away after reading this but I'll wait until I have a bit more time to properly structure my response before I post.

[fantastic]

I just don’t see the problem. For one, I have literally never been killed for breaking a wall into another cell or to get a smoke. Maybe some other people have but personally that’s never happened. Also, if we make it so vents are only KOS if they lead to a KOS area, what about all the vents that don’t lead to one. I feel like this would only further complicate things.

 

I wouldn't have made a thread about it if it hasn't happened a couple times, of which it has, especially on Castle with the "vent" between cells . The Spy VS. Spy vent defined above has never resulted in someone being warning shot/killed from my experience, as noted. This was included in the example because it doesn't make sense for it to be KOS, but it technically is a secret+vent and should be KOS by our current rule definition.

 

Which vents are ones which should be KOS but are not by my suggestion above? Perhaps we can work together to change the wording so that this is fixed. Note that my suggestion also makes vents that make a CTs job harder to keep track of you KOS, so vents which take you from your cell to a non-KOS area (i.e. from last cell to medic on minecraftparty) are still KOS. I don't find the wording to be complicated or confusing, but if it is let me know and again maybe we can try to work something out.

[Andrew]

I don't find the wording to be complicated or confusing, but if it is let me know and again maybe we can try to work something out.

 

What you said isn’t complicated, I’m referring to the ingame complicity if this were to be changed. I feel players will have a hard time distinguishing what vents are and aren’t KOS. Leading to T’s complaining about being warning shot for going through a non-kosable vent. You will always have the dickbags who will go out of their way to kill every T that goes through a vent. I think, although you made some good points, leaving it up to the CT to decide to kill players is the way to go to minimize ingame confusion.

[fantastic]

What you said isn’t complicated, I’m referring to the ingame complicity if this were to be changed. I feel players will have a hard time distinguishing what vents are and aren’t KOS. Leading to T’s complaining about being warning shot for going through a non-kosable vent. You will always have the dickbags who will go out of their way to kill every T that goes through a vent. I think, although you made some good points, leaving it up to the CT to decide to kill players is the way to go to minimize ingame confusion.

 

IMHO, leaving it up to the CT leads to these grey areas as defined above leads to a worse player experience for Ts who believed certain vents to not be KOS because intuition dictates them as not KOS areas. Leaving it up to the CT as you suggested means disregarding the current "all vents are KOS" rule, causing more confusion than the suggestion I've made above.

 

Focusing specifically on the vent between cells on Castle (this is a primary candidate which would benefit from this rule change; feel free to introduce others to the discussion which may cause confusion), there are arguments for either side as to whether or not the vent is KOS. Indeed, according to the rules as of right now all vents are KOS to minimize confusion. However, my suggestion mimics existing wording for teleporters which has not caused any confusion to my knowledge. Again, if you could introduce some examples of vents which this rule makes confusing it would help to determine what wording can be changed. I can't think of any vents which could cause confusion with the wording in OP.

[Andrew]

One that comes directly to mind is Moonjails AK secret. Now this may be a whole different idea, but breaking that wall, assuming after the code has be entered, is basically the same sense. Now, this may be different as the room in general may be KOS (Idk if is or not, can someone confirm) but assuming it isn’t directly KOS, should a CT still be able to kill any T that enters the room? Personally I wouldn’t but once again it’s up to the CT. I will keep thinking about other maps that may have this issue.

[fantastic]

One that comes directly to mind is Moonjails AK secret. Now this may be a whole different idea, but breaking that wall, assuming after the code has be entered, is basically the same sense. Now, this may be different as the room in general may be KOS (Idk if is or not, can someone confirm) but assuming it isn’t directly KOS, should a CT still be able to kill any T that enters the room? Personally I wouldn’t but once again it’s up to the CT. I will keep thinking about other maps that may have this issue.

 

Just learned a new secret thanks to you, cheers! The room itself is KOS as you can't get to it unless you break the vent with or without entering the code. Thus, yes, a CT should be able to kill any T that enters the room which aligns with the current ruleset along with my suggestion above since it is a KOS area. I'll keep thinking about other vents as well, thanks .

[Kopsta]

I personally think that any vent that leads to armory should be KOS, for the same reason armory catwalks are, they lead to armory. This rule should also follow for any vents that one can access from their cell once they spawn in, as it would allow them to get to a place which would be considered blatant disobeying. As for teleporters, I think that there is a good common knowledge already established for what is allowed and what isn't.

[fantastic]

I personally think that any vent that leads to armory should be KOS, for the same reason armory catwalks are, they lead to armory.

Yes, this is already a rule and the suggestion in OP follows. I agree with this

 

This rule should also follow for any vents that one can access from their cell once they spawn in, as it would allow them to get to a place which would be considered blatant disobeying.

This thread is concerning vents which one can access from their cell which does not lead to a place which is considered blatant disobeying, hence the suggestion for rewording. Not all vents lead to areas which are considered blatant disobeying, specifically:

 

But there are some vents which don't make sense as KOS areas:

 

• ba_mlcastle_se: vent between cells
  This doesn't make sense because it offers no advantages other than letting you hop between cells before cell doors are open. It doesn't lead to any KOS area, and it doesn't make a CT's job harder to keep track of Ts. However, because it's technically a secret, some CTs have been killing Ts for using this.
  
• Spy VS. Spy: vent in cell which gives you a smoke and a spy mask
  This doesn't make sense because it's not taking you outside of your cell nor is the area inside a KOS area. Furthermore, it does not hinder a CTs ability to keep track of Ts. Indeed, I have never seen any CT shoot/kill a T who has gotten the smoke from this "secret" through the vent.
  

 

What are your thoughts on making these two areas not KOS as opposed to KOS as the current rule suggests?

 

As for teleporters, I think that there is a good common knowledge already established for what is allowed and what isn't.

 

Not a topic of this thread, not sure why you brought it up O_o. It is because there is good common knowledge for what is allowed that what isn't that I modelled this new suggestion after the exception for teleporters.

 

Thanks for your post looking forward to your thoughts.