[Answered] [SG] Kriegtakes

[Edmund]

Having spent a fair bit of time recently on the retakes server, I and others that I've communicated with have found an issue with the balance of t side on the server. There are multiple factors that could be adjusted that could properly balance the gamemode and make it closer to a classic competitive style retake. (cs is inherently favored to the defenders). These things include the 5v5 playercount limit instead of a more balanced 4v5, number of kriegs, t sided player spawns, and the amount of utility given to either side.

 

Reducing the playercount limit is the last thing I'd recommend doing, to keep more people playing at once, but in the meantime I suggest that kriegs should be rebalanced on the server. I think either a limit of the number of kriegs per t-side team (~2-3) OR (i like this one better) removing all utility from the t player if they have the krieg equipped. This fits in with the natural balance of the game because you trade extra utility for the krieg in a normal game. Playing on maps like dust 2 or inferno, a single smoke can shut down an entire retake and funnel all the ct's into one chokepoint, making for easy cleanup. I'd really like to see some sort of con to using the krieg, because it is straight up better than the ak if you don't have to pay extra for it.

[Manny]

Limiting the use of the Krieg seems to be such a lazy way to try and find a solution to the problem that is the T-Side dominance. It's insanely unrealistic, as you can easily see a pro game where all 5 players on T-side are carrying a Krieg. I think the best way to try and balance the server is to give CTs more utility, other than that though, you can only try to balance the server so much because at the end of the day, Meta is Meta, we can't and shouldn't try to control our own meta that isn't align with CS:GO's.

[duffy]

- Make it 4v5

- Gives CTs more nades

- Reduce the number of kriegs on one team

- Make the shuffling system more consistent (not where 1 person gets shuffled every time)

 

And there is the fix to retakes

[Gentoo]

Retakes is SUPPOSED to be T sided in the same way that executes are supposed to be CT sided. This is essentially a light roleplay that Ts have already taken the site and planted the bomb. In an actual competitive game, the round is essentially theirs 90% of the time. The SG is only $300 more than the AK, so once again, it's not uncommon to see multiple players with it on a buy round if it's what they prefer. I was under the impression that retakes was supposed to train you for actual retake scenarios rather than being just another one of our roleplay/minigame servers; nerfing Ts then would actually make the server less useful and appealing to competitive minded players who actually want to practice.

 

- Make the shuffling system more consistent (not where 1 person gets shuffled every time)

 

Fairly confident that this is literally just the iTunes effect in action. Couldn't be completely positive without one of the ATs/TAs filling in how the plugin works, but chances are, when randomly shuffling, teams will look similar.

[Edmund]

@Manny You say not having 5 kriegs is unrealistic, but having lots of utility(given your change, I don't know how much you are thinking) after a bomb plant is? I think the ct's utility right now is okay, if multiple ct's had 2 flashes it would be a mess for both t's and ct's to do anything. There isn't enough time during a retake to clear 5 positions with 5 mollies if all the ct's had one. I really think getting rid of utility for krieg players would be good because it directly reflects the meta of competitive.

 

I don't see why we can't try and balance retakes to be something other than what csgo's (in my opinion broken) meta is. The whole situaton of a 5v5 retake is so unrealistic in the first place. If you want to play competitive meta, play competitive. SG is in control of this server and they should change it so the community as a whole can have the most fun on it as a gamemode, and if that requires making changes that one may or may not view as realistic to a competitive game, so be it.

[Edmund]

@Gentoo no retakes servers that I've seen correctly train you for a realistic retake in comp. In competitive you're only retaking as a ct when there's a tangible advantage at hand, e.g. a t is low hp, you have someone in the bombsite already, or a sizable man-advantage. In this server there's no advantage to be had. I understand that the defender of the bombsite, whoever is currently in control, has an inherent advantage. I think retakes should stay that way of course. But it just feels futile to be retaking a bombsite round after round against 5 full health t's with utility and kriegs with no advantageous positioning. In a real game, which you're allegedly practicing for by playing retakes, you'd save.

 

You can't make people start with low health or spawn a ct in the bombsite for obvious reasons, so doing what we can to make it more fun when you're stuck on ct side should be something we do.

 

And for the idea of the gamemode being used to practice to retake effectively in comp, I completely understand why you would think that, but the meta of the server and it's regulars do not reflect that. Our players will drypeek or push positions like truck on cache or library on inferno just to catch out a player and kill him, where in a comp (depending on rank of course) it's risky play that won't pay off if you do it every round. Our regulars play to get their points higher than their friends on the leaderboard. They aren't practicing nade lineups or flashes to try and secure the round, they're going for kills.

[Manny]

@Manny You say not having 5 kriegs is unrealistic, but having lots of utility(given your change, I don't know how much you are thinking) after a bomb plant is? I think the ct's utility right now is okay, if multiple ct's had 2 flashes it would be a mess for both t's and ct's to do anything. There isn't enough time during a retake to clear 5 positions with 5 mollies if all the ct's had one. I really think getting rid of utility for krieg players would be good because it directly reflects the meta of competitive.

 

Having more utility on CT side is by far a more realistic scenario than 5 Ts not choosing the Krieg as their primary gun. Probably a better solution for the problems would be to heavily look into the Guns plugin more in-depth to the point where it reflects real-game money per round.

 

I don't see why we can't try and balance retakes to be something other than what csgo's (in my opinion broken) meta is. The whole situaton of a 5v5 retake is so unrealistic in the first place. If you want to play competitive meta, play competitive. SG is in control of this server and they should change it so the community as a whole can have the most fun on it as a gamemode, and if that requires making changes that one may or may not view as realistic to a competitive game, so be it.

 

I'm not sure why everyone is so hellbent on the server being 4v5 or why the server is even 5v5 in the first place. While it'd be nice to stay tunnel visioned on what SG players what changed in the server, but you also got to look at the competition and see why they retain players. Retakes should stay in-line with the CS:GO meta because thats what makes the most sense and thats what Retake players seem to be okay with the most. I've never seen a Retake server try and create their own meta by messing with the guns plugin to the extent of how many players get a certain gun, not including AWPs. Whether CS:GO's meta is unfair or broken it just doesn't make sense to create a non-vanilla kind of play.

[Edmund]

Having more utility on CT side is by far a more realistic scenario than 5 Ts not choosing the Krieg as their primary gun. Probably a better solution for the problems would be to heavily look into the Guns plugin more in-depth to the point where it reflects real-game money per round.

Looking at https://www.hltv.org/stats?startDate=2019-02-27&endDate=2020-02-27 , the last 6 months of weapon usage(the time period where the krieg is at it's highest) in all games recorded by hltv show that the ak is still getting nearly 20% more kills than the krieg. These are semipro and above games. Not everyone uses the krieg. There's a clear trend of skill and krieg usage, shown if you change the parameters on hltv to follow big events where the best of the best play, and if you play low ranked faceit or mm, rarely will players stick to the krieg throughout a game(given enough money.) It's flat out wrong to say every person wants to use the krieg. In fact, our stats page for the server shows that the krieg collects a measly 6% of the kills on the server, while the ak has 42%. (the stats for this may be screwed up because of testing, etc. The headshot percentage for ak is wacked out so that's what makes me think it might be.) Despite the krieg being used less, people still view it as an issue.

 

It's just not fun to play against and I think something like this should be tested and polled upon, to see where the community stands and if existing population is negatively affected by the change.

I'm not sure why everyone is so hellbent on the server being 4v5 or why the server is even 5v5 in the first place. While it'd be nice to stay tunnel visioned on what SG players what changed in the server, but you also got to look at the competition and see why they retain players. Retakes should stay in-line with the CS:GO meta because thats what makes the most sense and thats what Retake players seem to be okay with the most. I've never seen a Retake server try and create their own meta by messing with the guns plugin to the extent of how many players get a certain gun, not including AWPs. Whether CS:GO's meta is unfair or broken it just doesn't make sense to create a non-vanilla kind of play.

 

I don't see how it's out of the meta to not give krieg user utility in the interest of player happiness. While I said I agree if changes that are unrealistic to cs:go's meta are made as long as they are beneficial, I didn't make any suggestions that would be very drastic at all. Changing this server is going to be a slow process regardless with increments being made so higher ups can catch what players don't like.

[kabLe]

One question, what are you gonna do in a real game where one smoke forces your whole team to funnel in one chokepoint? Just gonna call it quits cause it's OP? Ive said it before and I'll say it again, you don't know how to play cs if one smoke throws your entire game off and makes it a throw away round. Throw a flash for a teammate, communicate, make the first move so the smoke can't fuck you. There's so many things you can do but saying the weapon is causing unfairness is ridiculous. For 20 years the AK one tapped while the m4 didn't it ain't the gun it's the player.

[EvilEye]

There's so many things you can do but saying the weapon is causing unfairness is ridiculous. For 20 years the AK one tapped while the m4 didn't it ain't the gun it's the player.

 

The reason why people think the Krieg vs M4 is an issue is mainly because of the scope. The Krieg is just a heavily upgraded version of the AK. It basically takes any player who can AVG about 20% hs with the AK and turns them into a beast with the Krieg because the scope just gives the player so much of an advantage. Yes, AK v M4 has always existed and the reason why not many people complain about it is that if you peek an AK with an M4 at medium-long range, you have a chance to kill them because both of you are smaller targets. So a headshot is harder and (on retakes when the terrorist is using an AK) it usually results in both players spraying which the M4 has the advantage in. The Krieg basically makes the fight one-sided because the scope makes your target easier to hit and headshot. Now add in that Ts get a smoke, molly or flashbang and they can also just hold an angle and let the CTs peek and you see why so many players are complaining.

 

 

The CT equivalent of the Krieg (the AUG) sucks as a weapon because its fire rate is straight trash. It is less than the Krieg so it results in you most likely dying in a spray down or just trying to dink them twice.