Reworking Recognition Ranks (Hon Gamer - Veteran - LG)

[Spiritwind]

Figured after @Cautions post, this would be a good "official" place to bring this up. If I'm wrong, feel more than welcome to move it.

 

Lets keep this civil and clean please. This is a discussion for the reworking, a place to put ideas forward, or voice your approval or disapproval of the change in general.

 

Personally, I think Caution is right. LG should have never had permanent Admin in any servers. Admin should have been granted on a case by case basis, if the person was active in the servers again and wanted to apply or work it out. No Legend should have the permanent ability to just randomly join a server after years and get any special privilege other than perhaps a cool skin.

 

However, I don't agree with separating the LG rank, I just agree with removing server powers. I feel that separating it out cherry picks the BDs or other Staff favorites. I think it would have a tendency of choosing favorites over the amount a person actually contributed. I think it should be just one flat rank, LG. This way, everyone who deserves it gets recognition, but nobody feels like their time and resources weren't appreciated. Honestly, I don't see any reason this would have even been thought up unless someone had a gripe with one of the legends and wanted them demoted. This should not happen in my opinion. Personal relationships should not be a factor, how much you contributed should be a factor. However, personal relationships will always be an influence on a vote when you have a relation with that person, which is why veteran and LG should just be one rank.

 

Personally, I had LG because I was a TA. I don't however feel like I put in near the amount of time I should have to have deserved LG or even the rank, however I was a long time Admin, and have been a long term member of the community, and accepted the promotion and held it with Pride. I do not feel insulted I got demoted, as I said, I never felt I deserved it in the first place, but was greatful nontheless. However, I did see a few old school members of the community, who I can recall putting in a lot of work; if anything more than any of our staff today, yet got the rank Veteran. The only reason I see this is likely is that they are no longer active, some check in here and there, but most modern staff today have no clue who they are or the work they put in. They still deserve the recognition, regardless of whether or not they are active, but are no longer getting it. Instead, they got a rank below another rank that says this guy did better than you.

 

I see others who have been staff members off and on, and while they did not have the social skill as others, they still put in just as much work, if not more, than many of the people you deemed worthy of Legend. To be honest, a large list of people I see in Legends got along great with most of the staff, and a couple never did anything large for the community, at least not in the long term. But, while looking in the Veterans, I see a few people who worked their ass off, for the long term, but was never on the social level the Legends were. I just see it being a long term problem that dosent need to be there.

 

Why separate it out, I guess that is just my only problem. If we are going to make changes, lets make changes that will actually impact the community in a good way. Not one that is going to cherry pick and divide out our long term members. I feel this was an unneeded change, and one that will do more harm than good right here and now, and in the long term.

 

Edit: Also, bummed that after years of wearing it, I am now no longer allowed to wear the [sG] tag in steam... For some reason, that does kind of feel like a slap in the face.

@Caution No matter how many times you say this is not a demotion, I don't see how it could be viewed as any other way. You kept the original rank, then made one below it, and moved a lot of members to it. That is cut and simple a demotion.

[Kieran]

Any "recognition" list is subjective though, so they have to pick favorites. They already did this with HG vs. LG. What makes someone an LG or VT can't be defined because every single person here put in a different amount/type of work at a different point in the community's history for a different duration of time. I don't see this as discrediting the work of Veterans, but simply giving an extra little form of recognition to those who, in their eyes, went above and beyond the rest.

 

It's perfectly fine to disagree with the rankings. Almost everyone will disagree to an extent because it is a subjective list. At the end of the day, the title or name color doesn't define a person's legacy, but rather how you remember them as a staff/member here.

[Caution]

As mentioned in my previous post, I'm not going to go in depth about who did what to deserve this rank or that rank. There is a lot that most people don't know about that I will not air in public - save for said person going around and openly discussing it, which is a different ballgame and forces us into a position where we have to respond usually, which nobody wants to do. I don't want to put anybody down or air anyone's past in public if it can be helped, because a lot of it just isn't appropriate.

 

While complete objectivity in any situation is generally impossible, it's something that we strived for here. Beyond saying that we didn't take into account personal relationships and friendships, there's not a whole lot that I can say to prove that. It can either be accepted or rejected, which the community members will have to make their own determination on. Anyone that was around in the past that the rest of the BD's did not know about (Henda, Broncoty, mNote, Litkey, etc.), I either made the call myself or filled everyone in on generally what they did, and we made a determination from there. There are plenty of people that I am personally friends with not at LG, as well as people I don't care for at LG.

 

Personal bias is impossible to 100% avoid, but we do try our best. I actually recuse myself entirely (not abstain) from certain votes if I know that I'll hold a bias in the vote. Not just with this situation, but in general as well.

[Spiritwind]

If they went out in a firestorm and caused trouble in the community, its pure and simple. They don't get LG. They get demoted to a regular member, or if they caused harm to the community, they get the banhammer. If its an LG that screwed up, then that is simple, they get regular tags or the banhammer. If its a personal vendetta and one person resigns, the other should bite their tongue and deal with it. That is what adults do.

 

Personal bias is always impossible to avoid, of course. That is why you make an effort not to create division like this change did. Do like we did in the old days, keep a cut and dry qualification for it, and don't look below and above that. That is how you avoid bias opinions, that is how you avoid turning SG into a high school popularity contest (which it has been becoming the last few years).

 

I guess I just want to know the reason this change went about. If its about them having admin, remove admin for all of them. Make them go through the normal process, or a direct application process and get Admin with their LG.

 

Quite literally, I see no reason this change would have been made, if not for personal reasons. Someone took a look at the LG list, didn't like a name or names they saw on it, and wanted them out.

 

 

To be honest, this change has me feeling like its a good time to say goodbye to SG (after over 10 years). That is the feedback I am giving you. I feel many people who priorly got the recognition they deserved just got a slap in the face, and that is not something I want to be a part of. It is up to you whether or not you want to consider reevaluating this change based on feedback from multiple long term members, the members this change effects, or if you want to continue with your ideas. You are afterall the President of SG. It is in your right to take this baby the direction you believe is best.

[Caution]

@Caution No matter how many times you say this is not a demotion, I don't see how it could be viewed as any other way. You kept the original rank, then made one below it, and moved a lot of members to it. That is cut and simple a demotion.

 

Not really a point to argue with you then if you can't see it another way. The example I used of restructuring the AO rank is generally about the same. Yes, both situations had powers removed, but both groups were focused in a more specific direction, as opposed to arbitrarily giving people things that may not align with the direction that we want the community to go on, just because 'well that's how it's been for the last x amount of years'. And, to be technical, LG was actually given additional powers (basically the same as a CA, to include access to the CA section).

[Spiritwind]

Any "recognition" list is subjective though, so they have to pick favorites. They already did this with HG vs. LG. What makes someone an LG or VT can't be defined because every single person here put in a different amount/type of work at a different point in the community's history for a different duration of time. I don't see this as discrediting the work of Veterans, but simply giving an extra little form of recognition to those who, in their eyes, went above and beyond the rest.

 

HG were long term members and Admins/CA who contributed to the community for a set amount of time and deserved recognition. LG was AO-BDs who resigned on good terms and contributed for a good amount of time. It was cut and dry, pure and simple. It was only in later days that we turned it into more of a popularity contest. Just around the same time we made changes to what age ranges we allowed on the staff team because certain staff felt they were likable enough.

[Spiritwind]

Not really a point to argue with you then if you can't see it another way. The example I used of restructuring the AO rank is generally about the same. Yes, both situations had powers removed, but both groups were focused in a more specific direction, as opposed to arbitrarily giving people things that may not align with the direction that we want the community to go on, just because 'well that's how it's been for the last x amount of years'. And, to be technical, LG was actually given additional powers (basically the same as a CA, to include access to the CA section).

 

And what I was saying is they should have never of had CA powers. It should have been a recognition. A tag they could proudly wear. So that whenever they came back, people would see that they at one time helped the community become better. Now its removed. Now many of those users no longer get that recognition. Many of us did not care one bit if we had admin powers or could see the CA forums. We appreciated the thank you that was given to us. All that needed to be done was a removal of those powers. If one individual needed admin or wanted to help, they could have applied. If another needed to see the CA forums, then they should have been working towards getting CA.

Comparing a honorary rank change to a management rank change is pointless in my opinion. It was my belief we werent given LG to continue to work, it was my belief we were given LG as a thank you. Sorry if I was incorrect in that assessment.

[Caution]

If they went out in a firestorm and caused trouble in the community, its pure and simple. They don't get LG. They get demoted to a regular member, or if they caused harm to the community, they get the banhammer. If its an LG that screwed up, then that is simple, they get regular tags or the banhammer. If its a personal vendetta and one person resigns, the other should bite their tongue and deal with it. That is what adults do.

It's not really pure and simple; that's your opinion. We have had situations in the past of higher-up members who didn't create a firestorm, but had some other sort of situation that we determined not to give them LG for. Each situation is completely unique and different, and oftentimes we create rules or general guidelines as situations pop up. There's not really a manual to follow based on individual situations, we discuss whatever it is after the fact and go from there. I'd generally say that we do a pretty decent job trying to keep personal biases out - I call out other BD's, IA's, or whoever if there is a known bias peeking out, and I would expect them to do the same to me if I couldn't recognize it.

 

 

Personal bias is always impossible to avoid, of course. That is why you make an effort not to create division like this change did. Do like we did in the old days, keep a cut and dry qualification for it, and don't look below and above that. That is how you avoid bias opinions, that is how you avoid turning SG into a high school popularity contest (which it has been becoming the last few years).

 

 

LG has never been cut and dry. RS wasn't really cut and dry either, and forced us into a situation where we had people who became higher ups, stepped down weeks after, and technically fall into the criteria for RS, which was garbage that they receive additional powers when, if anything, they burned us by taking up a promotion slot for a few weeks.

 

I guess I just want to know the reason this change went about. If its about them having admin, remove admin for all of them. Make them go through the normal process, or a direct application process and get Admin with their LG.

 

Restructuring ranks in general for the new forums had all ranks pretty much brought up and evaluated.

 

Quite literally, I see no reason this change would have been made, if not for personal reasons. Someone took a look at the LG list, didn't like a name or names they saw on it, and wanted them out.

 

I'm not going to engage in conspiracy theories. I don't have the time nor the energy for it. Either take what I say as me being up front, or don't; that's up to you.

 

 

To be honest, this change has me feeling like its a good time to say goodbye to SG (after over 10 years). That is the feedback I am giving you. I feel many people who priorly got the recognition they deserved just got a slap in the face, and that is not something I want to be a part of. It is up to you whether or not you want to consider reevaluating this change based on feedback from multiple long term members, the members this change effects, or if you want to continue with your ideas. You are afterall the President of SG. It is in your right to take this baby the direction you believe is best.

 

Then I wish you nothing but the best. Thank you for your work here, and good luck in your future endeavors.

 

 

HG were long term members and Admins/CA who contributed to the community for a set amount of time and deserved recognition. LG was AO-BDs who resigned on good terms and contributed for a good amount of time. It was cut and dry, pure and simple. It was only in later days that we turned it into more of a popularity contest. Just around the same time we made changes to what age ranges we allowed on the staff team because certain staff felt they were likable enough.

 

That's not really the way it worked, nor was it cut and dry. I'm actually not sure what you're talking about whatsoever, because after RS, LG has always been a BD determination of who got what, and it was based on several factors that had nothing to do with a popularity contest.

 

 

So that whenever they came back, people would see that they at one time helped the community become better. Now its removed. Now many of those users no longer get that recognition. Many of us did not care one bit if we had admin powers or could see the CA forums. We appreciated the thank you that was given to us. All that needed to be done was a removal of those powers. If one individual needed admin or wanted to help, they could have applied. If another needed to see the CA forums, then they should have been working towards getting CA.

Comparing a honorary rank change to a management rank change is pointless in my opinion. It was my belief we werent given LG to continue to work, it was my belief we were given LG as a thank you. Sorry if I was incorrect in that assessment.

 

People absolutely still see that they helped the community become better; that's the entire point of the recognition ranks in general, whether it's HG / LG / Vet. LG was absolutely given as a thank you, but our gratitude does not start & stop at what permissions or pretty colors we give. We're not going to completely disallow any type of change whatsoever to the rank just to make sure people feel extra thanked. That's like me getting butthurt if Applebee's gives Veteran's discounts, then later stops. Even the BD rank was redone a decent amount to better fit our needs and the direction that we want to go in as a whole.

[Spiritwind]

I think its quite obvious you have your mind made up by this and me speaking is just increases the chances of me leaving on bad terms with people around here.

 

If my voice, and the voice of many other people (original thread) does not show you that you need to look at this open minded, then nothing I say will.

 

As for your last post;

"People absolutely still see that they helped the community become better; that's the entire point of the recognition ranks in general, whether it's HG / LG / Vet. LG was absolutely given as a thank you, but our gratitude does not start & stop at what permissions or pretty colors we give. We're not going to completely disallow any type of change whatsoever to the rank just to make sure people feel extra thanked. That's like me getting butthurt if Applebee's gives Veteran's discounts, then later stops. Even the BD rank was redone a decent amount to better fit our needs and the direction that we want to go in as a whole."

 

This has been me saying that I feel you are not saying thank you to the long term members with this change. I have said multiple times, I could care less what permissions you are giving. What matters is that you just separated out a rank, and determined who was better than the other person. That shit hurts. That is the kind of stuff that will cause you to loose long term dedicated members, the backbone of your community. But, I'm pretty much being told right now that my opinion, and the opinion of other people effected, don't matter.

 

No, your right. This would be more like Applebees saying we are giving 20% off to all veterans except the marines. They just get 5% off.

[Caution]

I think its quite obvious you have your mind made up by this and me speaking is just increases the chances of me leaving on bad terms with people around here.

 

If my voice, and the voice of many other people (original thread) does not show you that you need to look at this open minded, then nothing I say will.

 

I've said it numerous times that basically every aspect of SG is open to potential change, at any point in time. I did not spearhead this change, nor really had a lot to do with it whatsoever, beyond being involved in the conversations. And, as have mentioned, would prefer to lean towards removing all admin in general save for those who actually maintain server activity. Me not bowing / catering to 'well I'll just leave' doesn't mean anything beyond the obvious that I'm not going to use that as a factor in giving my vote one way or the other, because then every single decision made here would be influenced based on someone saying that. Sorry, but that isn't how it works.

 

 

As for your last post;

"People absolutely still see that they helped the community become better; that's the entire point of the recognition ranks in general, whether it's HG / LG / Vet. LG was absolutely given as a thank you, but our gratitude does not start & stop at what permissions or pretty colors we give. We're not going to completely disallow any type of change whatsoever to the rank just to make sure people feel extra thanked. That's like me getting butthurt if Applebee's gives Veteran's discounts, then later stops. Even the BD rank was redone a decent amount to better fit our needs and the direction that we want to go in as a whole."

 

This has been me saying that I feel you are not saying thank you to the long term members with this change. I have said multiple times, I could care less what permissions you are giving. What matters is that you just separated out a rank, and determined who was better than the other person. That shit hurts. That is the kind of stuff that will cause you to loose long term dedicated members, the backbone of your community. But, I'm pretty much being told right now that my opinion, and the opinion of other people effected, don't matter.

This is already literally what has been happening based upon who was getting LG and who was not, to an extent. There wasn't any middle-ground between those that might not have deserved LG, but deserved more than HG. With the ranks expanding, it was determined that we should probably put a middle-ground somewhere in there (it was originally going to be RS, but there were a few people that didn't actually hold a staff rank but still have put in time over the years - hence, 'veteran'). I initially wasn't going to get involved with the discussion here in public due to the aforementioned reasoning in the beginning paragraph, but clearly me responding at all shows you that opinions matter. Just because I don't agree with yours, whether it's in the minority, majority, or somewhere in the middle, doesn't mean that I don't take it into account.

 

 

No, your right. This would be more like Applebees saying we are giving 20% off to all veterans except the marines. They just get 5% off.

 

An interesting appeal to character, but not really.

 

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