Revamped "Head Guard"

[TheZZL]

Just another bump here, we are still looking into bringing this discussion back up. Whether you want this idea implemented or hate it, please leave your feedback below. The way this could work is the warden would have these permissions:

 

• Automatically take !fo
• Be able to mute Guards and Prisoners for a short period of time to give orders and clear the comms
• Allow other Guards to give orders
• Revoke/Override other Guards' orders if they deem it necessary, however we would prevent and watch for abuse.

From our Jailbreak Community Meeting a week and a half ago, we discussed making Warden toggle-able depending on the number of players online and if any of them met the requirements for the role. For example, you could only take warden if you are a certain CT Rank (For example Lieutenant) and there were more than 30 players online. If no one online or on CT side met those requirements the Warden feature would be disabled and it would be your current Jailbreak with all Guards giving orders.

 

If you'd like to check the warden-related meeting notes click here.

Leave your Jailbreak Event Suggestions here, the Jailbreak/Events Team is excited to see what you guys think up. 

 

 

[20 scrolls]

I like the idea but do not want Warden to be CT rank locked, atleast with how the current CT rank is. CT ranks are based on the playtime you have on CT, and doesn't really determine that you're a fit CT to lead. I've seen CTs who are LT giving freedays no soccer and just camping soccer, which is basically a warday.

 

• Be able to mute Guards and Prisoners for a short period of time to give orders and clear the comms
• Revoke/Override other Guards' orders if they deem it necessary, however we would prevent and watch for abuse.

I like this idea as long as theres a nerf to do this, to prevent CTs from just abusing it on guards or other prisoners, something like a delay of some sort. A suggestion I have would be a warden ban system that admins would have, where we could ban players for a period of time from using warden (this would be for if someone is using warden, for a reason its not intended for).
 

 

[Benzene]

My personal thoughts on this are that we can have a "warden" that is not necessarily what other communities, such as Tango may have, and we can change and adjust that addition (assuming it is added) if necessary, or if we feel as though a part of it is not balanced correctly or just doesn't jive with out server and the way we function.

 

I like the idea of a "Head Guard" more, because you're allowing someone to take control of the CTs (and hopefully a more experienced CT as well) and make sure that the round is running smoothly.

 

I'd like it if other guards were able to give orders, but st any time the Head Guard is able to revoke that order without it being a conflicting order, and other guards are not allowed to revoke the Head Guard's orders. 

 

Obviously there are ways to abuse this, such as taking Head Guard and just giving a freeday, but we have a lot of admins who play regularly and can prevent this sort of thing from happening.

 

Overall I think this concept is interesting, and might be able to spice up the way SG plays Jailbreak as of now.

[Aster]

To be honest just give The Head guard permission to override other orders and you can’t speak over him.

 

Its been quite annoying lately with the CTs speaking over each other and I feel bad for the Ts because if no admin is on they don’t know what to do cause you can’t hear shit.

 

The idea of the Head Guard/Lead/Warden would be to take charge of everything and give the orders this can be demonstrated by having a command to claim the role in game and having it place next to their name.

 

I would say the Role would give the power to override any order from a CT but if this power is abused by not letting any other CT give orders the person can call an admin it is not my decision to decide the punishment but I would say a CT ban would be fair.

 

Rules: Having The Role would make it so you can override orders as I’ve said but you can’t override a death game from a CT because it wouldn’t be fair and The Role would continue to give orders for the other Ts if any CT speaks over the Role the Head Guy would be able to mute them for 15 seconds. 

 

In general this Role to JB is necessary because with the popularity of SG JB and the new players it would be a good learning curve for all of us to organize things better. Take it as an experiment that can be modified whenever by taking suggestions from the community and if they don’t like it it doesn’t have to stay.

 

 

 

EDIT: This is a suggestion I will clarify anything if you quote me and call me out on something that needs clarification.

[RemixedPixel]

I've been nagging Chad about not adding warden every since he became SM, but if I'm just the vocal minority, I just want to give some things that I want to add.

 

-Make head guard sergeant+, firstly give the slightest nudge encouraging CTs to play more. Now that we've dropped tpoints, my tpoint requirement suggestion that I made is effectively null. Additionally, because the timer to play CT is still broken, there is basically no requirement for a new player from another server to join CT, take HG, and give incorrect orders. Without admins, you have effectively allowed that player to commit mfk and ban them for 3 days without them really knowing what the problem is. Setting a HG command to Sergeant+ would encourage new players to stay longer, and also turn away players that are trying to troll.

 

-Don't encourage the use of HG. Just like with !fo, some players take !fo only for the sake of getting others to shut up (myself included). Although it would seem beneficial for a reason, bad head guards are essentially bad CTs with even more power. In the same sense that !fo was made for the sake of avoiding CTs speaking over one another, it can easily be exploited for """""toxic""""" players to give """"bad""" orders.

 

-Don't allow mutes from HG. We already have !tmute (that is barely used since we never break 30), so simply lowering the requirement to trigger !tmute to whatever number HG is turned on allows the entire CT side to make that decision. In terms of muting CT side, I don't think that's necessary at all. I'm sure people are already unhappy when one takes !fo, and allowing HG to mute anyone they want, willy-nilly, would seem like a terrible decision. If people continue complaining that "oh i can't hear HG", then maybe explore into a priority speaker plugin. 

 

-Looking back into the thread, I think HG should have the same amount of armor, with a slight CT nerf in general. Taking a look into some basic statistics, for all maps released after !ctbuy came out, the numbers are staggering. About a year ago, the CT side win percentage typically varied between 21% - 30%. Now, 30% is essentially the new norm, with most maps easily exceeding that number. If you want to see numbers, feel free to check my math.

Spoiler

Similar maps [Pre-CTBuy vs. Post-CTBuy] (% change)

- electric_razor_go vs. electric_razor_go_pb [23.43% vs. 31.72%] (+8.29%)

- spy_v_spy_beta7 vs. spy_v_spy_v1-6 [31.80% vs. 38.77%] (+6.27%)

- undertale_v1b vs. undertale_v1e [20.99% vs. 29.64%] (+8.65%)

- electric_revamp_f2 vs. electric_revamp_f3 [21.82% vs. 28.59%] (+6.77%)

- moonjail_v1 vs. moonjail_sg_fix_1 [22.68% vs. 30.13%] (+7.45%)

- vipinthemix_hdr_fix vs. vipinthemix_b1 [23.99% vs. 34.43%] (+10.44%)

 

italics indicates that this map had !ctbuy for any amount of time

bold indicates that this map did not have !ctbuy for any amount of time

 

if I'm wrong in any way, lmk ill fix

I'm still a big fan of ctbuy, allowing CTs to play more and less aggressive depending on their teammate's purchases. However, more and more players are binding !ctbuy healthboost and instantly healing back HP, essentially, turning that CT into a 200+ HP player if their reflexes are fast enough. This strategy, if it continues, will drastically hinder rebelling Ts and raise the chances of slow, boring gameplay. If all CT players were nerfed to 100kevlar no helmet/35 kevlar+helmet (you would also need to modify maps that give you armor, like undertale), this would at least make this option less beneficial. In terms of buffing the HG, I don't want to encourage HG any more than what it already gives, so HG should be like normal. 

 

I've never been a fan of warden and any other ways for SG to lose what it has. Our server fills a niche that is the reason why it has this type of community. Communities like Tango have their warden system essentially perfected, and so watching SG try to mimic that not only shows a lack of creativity on behalf of the managers (apologies to Chad and TheZZL in advance), but it shows a distrust in the playerbase to handle things themselves. I'm glad to see that JB is trying to take chances, and make new decisions, but I'm genuinely unsure as if this is the way to go. However, if this is just me, I'll try my best to make sure that JB takes the best step forward.

[Vanya]

40 minutes ago, RemixedPixel said:

Make head guard sergeant+,

How bout officer + so they would have a clear understanding of the rules and how head guard works

[Chad]

11 hours ago, RemixedPixel said:

I've been nagging Chad about not adding warden every since he became SM, but if I'm just the vocal minority, I just want to give some things that I want to add.

 

-Make head guard sergeant+, firstly give the slightest nudge encouraging CTs to play more. Now that we've dropped tpoints, my tpoint requirement suggestion that I made is effectively null. Additionally, because the timer to play CT is still broken, there is basically no requirement for a new player from another server to join CT, take HG, and give incorrect orders. Without admins, you have effectively allowed that player to commit mfk and ban them for 3 days without them really knowing what the problem is. Setting a HG command to Sergeant+ would encourage new players to stay longer, and also turn away players that are trying to troll.

Just to state now, this is me talking and giving my opinion. Me and ZLL will discuss this idea this week. (@TheZZL) Anyway, we haven't discussed much about it so I would have to get back to this. If we made it accessible by having a certain CT rank, then most likely it would be Officer+. Sergeant+ is possible if we change the requirements. This would encourage new players to play for awhile and learn everything before having access to this power.

11 hours ago, RemixedPixel said:

-Don't encourage the use of HG. Just like with !fo, some players take !fo only for the sake of getting others to shut up (myself included). Although it would seem beneficial for a reason, bad head guards are essentially bad CTs with even more power. In the same sense that !fo was made for the sake of avoiding CTs speaking over one another, it can easily be exploited for """""toxic""""" players to give """"bad""" orders.

Until we can shift the community and gather players that are here to play and not troll/be toxic, I honestly wouldn't hate it if it was done once in a while. Now, I would plan to add some sort of rule that would combat a problem like this. Admins would just have to enforce it.

11 hours ago, RemixedPixel said:

-Don't allow mutes from HG. We already have !tmute (that is barely used since we never break 30), so simply lowering the requirement to trigger !tmute to whatever number HG is turned on allows the entire CT side to make that decision. In terms of muting CT side, I don't think that's necessary at all. I'm sure people are already unhappy when one takes !fo, and allowing HG to mute anyone they want, willy-nilly, would seem like a terrible decision. If people continue complaining that "oh i can't hear HG", then maybe explore into a priority speaker plugin. 

Why would we not allow mutes? We need the conflicting to stop and allow the order to get out to everyone CLEARLY. It would be pretty silly to mute the CTs and not the Ts. Most of the top JB servers mute both sides as well. Also, they make the Ts wait longer to talk as well. Pick your poison.

11 hours ago, RemixedPixel said:

-Looking back into the thread, I think HG should have the same amount of armor, with a slight CT nerf in general. Taking a look into some basic statistics, for all maps released after !ctbuy came out, the numbers are staggering. About a year ago, the CT side win percentage typically varied between 21% - 30%. Now, 30% is essentially the new norm, with most maps easily exceeding that number. If you want to see numbers, feel free to check my math.

  Reveal hidden contents

Similar maps [Pre-CTBuy vs. Post-CTBuy] (% change)

- electric_razor_go vs. electric_razor_go_pb [23.43% vs. 31.72%] (+8.29%)

- spy_v_spy_beta7 vs. spy_v_spy_v1-6 [31.80% vs. 38.77%] (+6.27%)

- undertale_v1b vs. undertale_v1e [20.99% vs. 29.64%] (+8.65%)

- electric_revamp_f2 vs. electric_revamp_f3 [21.82% vs. 28.59%] (+6.77%)

- moonjail_v1 vs. moonjail_sg_fix_1 [22.68% vs. 30.13%] (+7.45%)

- vipinthemix_hdr_fix vs. vipinthemix_b1 [23.99% vs. 34.43%] (+10.44%)

 

italics indicates that this map had !ctbuy for any amount of time

bold indicates that this map did not have !ctbuy for any amount of time

 

if I'm wrong in any way, lmk ill fix

I don't find this a problem. With how our current players play, I'm totally okay with CTs winning 30% of the time, especially with the maps that are most played. You need to give people a reason to play CT. If they aren't winning much, why would new players or players in general join CT if they know they will lose majority of the time? 

11 hours ago, RemixedPixel said:

I'm still a big fan of ctbuy, allowing CTs to play more and less aggressive depending on their teammate's purchases. However, more and more players are binding !ctbuy healthboost and instantly healing back HP, essentially, turning that CT into a 200+ HP player if their reflexes are fast enough. This strategy, if it continues, will drastically hinder rebelling Ts and raise the chances of slow, boring gameplay. If all CT players were nerfed to 100kevlar no helmet/35 kevlar+helmet (you would also need to modify maps that give you armor, like undertale), this would at least make this option less beneficial. In terms of buffing the HG, I don't want to encourage HG any more than what it already gives, so HG should be like normal. 

This would be discussed.

11 hours ago, RemixedPixel said:

I've never been a fan of warden and any other ways for SG to lose what it has. Our server fills a niche that is the reason why it has this type of community. Communities like Tango have their warden system essentially perfected, and so watching SG try to mimic that not only shows a lack of creativity on behalf of the managers (apologies to Chad and TheZZL in advance), but it shows a distrust in the playerbase to handle things themselves. I'm glad to see that JB is trying to take chances, and make new decisions, but I'm genuinely unsure as if this is the way to go. However, if this is just me, I'll try my best to make sure that JB takes the best step forward.

You can call it however you want, but the truth of the matter is that our server rank is dropping like flies. The biggest and most notable difference between our servers and the top servers is Warden. Our little niche hasn't been cutting it for months. Changes have been coming, but a BIG change is practically required. As for the "shows a distrust in the playerbase to handle things themselves," cmon man... seriously? There haven't been much suggestions or discussions happening for months. All I've gotten is complaining for changes or about the state of the server. So yes, the trust to handle this issue themselves isn't high at all. That isn't me or ZZL's fault though. So please don't put a bad taste in our mouths (I know it wasn't on purpose, or atleast I hope lmao). I'm very happy and glad that you are staying and making sure JB takes the best step forward even though you don't agree with this potential change. You are the type of members we need. I'm glad you have a different opinion and are willing to step up and share them. It allows us to shape up the changes better and see what things should/shouldn't be implemented. 

[TheZZL]

On 10/18/2020 at 10:39 AM, RemixedPixel said:

-Make head guard sergeant+, firstly give the slightest nudge encouraging CTs to play more. Now that we've dropped tpoints, my tpoint requirement suggestion that I made is effectively null. Additionally, because the timer to play CT is still broken, there is basically no requirement for a new player from another server to join CT, take HG, and give incorrect orders. Without admins, you have effectively allowed that player to commit mfk and ban them for 3 days without them really knowing what the problem is. Setting a HG command to Sergeant+ would encourage new players to stay longer, and also turn away players that are trying to troll.

Making Head Guard a CT-Rank permission is a given, and your T-Point requirement was not going to happen before Head Guard talks because it's unfair to those that may not be skilled or get killed early. The CT Play Timer is not broken, it only activated after a certain # of people are online. 

On 10/18/2020 at 10:39 AM, RemixedPixel said:

Without admins, you have effectively allowed that player to commit mfk and ban them for 3 days without them really knowing what the problem is.

What? That's not how admining or punishments work . We still have our Warn-Ban policy if you haven't forgotten, and our CT Bans plugin that lets the player learn if they're genuinely confused. Regardless of all of that, a first time offender would only get a 1 Day Ban under the new ban system, and their server ban would most likely be after multiple warnings/a CT Ban. 

 

We've been brainstorming lots of ideas over the past couple of months, thinking what we could introduce or incorporate into our version of Jailbreak to make us better and possibly compete with some of the best servers out there like EGO and HGxGFL. The issue is, we can't keep looking at their server since theirs are so much different than ours. Their servers have wardens and focus on eliminating as many Prisoners as possible through games, while our server is focused around rebelling through the use of secrets and how well the Guards can/can't maintain chaos. That's why we play maps like razor/revamp/VIP so frequently because they favor Prisoners and make the Guards' role so much more difficult, that's also why we sometimes have an issue with Guards because there's so much demanded from them in order to have a successful round. So, introducing any type of warden is not something I am in favor of, but okay with experimenting with. 

 

I think our main focus right now should be on how to grow the server and player retention. Something hindering that is how our CTs give orders. Like I encouraged the admins a few days ago, I encourage the players to think about how you want the server to grow and recognize how you give orders effects the mood of the server. Repeatedly giving the same stale "One step out" order makes people get bored while constantly ordering the Prisoners to crouch from X to Y or  "Freeze Crouch knife the ground" genuinely bothers people and makes them not want to play our servers. For those regulars who keep up-to-date with the servers, please try your best to make the game fun for everyone and not so focused around just yourself. Just some food for thought, if the issue continues to persist  @Chad and I will end up having a discussion on it and see how we can manage the situation. 

[Phoenix_]

Honestly speaking, I really didn't anticipate myself making another reply to this thread, but here I am. I'm sorry if everything I say isn't really "up-to-date" since I rarely play jailbreak now and many things have changed since my "absence". 

7 hours ago, TheZZL said:

I think our main focus right now should be on how to grow the server and player retention. Something hindering that is how our CTs give orders. Like I encouraged the admins a few days ago, I encourage the players to think about how you want the server to grow and recognize how you give orders effects the mood of the server. Repeatedly giving the same stale "One step out" order makes people get bored while constantly ordering the Prisoners to crouch from X to Y or  "Freeze Crouch knife the ground" genuinely bothers people and makes them not want to play our servers. For those regulars who keep up-to-date with the servers, please try your best to make the game fun for everyone and not so focused around just yourself. Just some food for thought, if the issue continues to persist  @Chad and I will end up having a discussion on it and see how we can manage the situation. 

I do think that encouraging regulars and admins to take their own personal steps to try and make the server more fun and enjoyable is a good step, but won't really achieve much. As bitter as it sounds, there are just too many people who don't actively check the forums or really care to break their habitual playstyle for the betterment of the server. A discussion of how to manage the discussion is inevitable because change needs to happen. Statistically speaking, this server is on the downswing as sad as it is to see. Even though we are during the school year, during the after-school hours in years past there would be a concurrent player count from about 18-32 from about 3PM-8PM EST on school days, and the highest I usually see the server when I'm on CS:GO is in the high teens. 

 

Though the style of the server I knew and loved from when I was young still exists, it's time for a change. As I said in the OP, the CTs NEED more structure. The task at hand is really hard to take care of, and I give you both credit for looking at all the options to look for an answer. Trying to find a balance between CT-structured play and our "trademark" prisoner chaotic play is nearly impossible. I still agree with parts of what I wrote back in May. I think it would be really interesting to still allow the freedom of guards of giving orders but having a big brother there to mark who the bad guys are (if they are KOS, not rebelling), and be the backbone that gives definite orders that in most cases can't be changed. If either of you two ( @TheZZL @Chad ) would like to have a discussion with me about any of this I would be glad to, just pm me on Discord, I'll reply when I am able to.