Russia Invades Ukraine pt 3

[Gentoo]

32 minutes ago, Infinityward said:

You're actually ridiculous, you have civilians with their hands tied dead in the streets that just so happened to be killed from shelling?

No, the majority of images from the city clearly show most bodies without their hands tied in close proximity to shelling craters, damage, debris. 

 

36 minutes ago, Infinityward said:

Source: image. Not a video not an account. A picture of bodies. Any forensics or corroborating evidence? Is there a reason all of the restraints are made up of white cloth (potentially the armbands worn in Russian occupied areas) and what appears to be trash and other ground debris in place of zip ties, handcuffs, duct tape, or anything more likely that Russians in a heavily occupied area would have access to? Going to swan dive off the deep end hear and ask you for an explanation why this caption is any more plausible than Ukrainians crafting a false flag from the situation.

 

44 minutes ago, Infinityward said:

"Azov has killed civilians too so that makes it okay!"

No, nowhere did I state or imply this. You responded to one of my counterpoints in response to your list of reasons why Russia is very obviously big bad guy (when Ukraine has and is actively doing just about all of the things you mentioned), and I am urging you not to pull shoddily crafted stories out without acknowledging the multitude of attacks against civilians by Ukraine prior to and during the invasion as well as war crimes committed prior to and during.

 

49 minutes ago, Infinityward said:

its not a justification for Russia committing war crimes

I don't think I implied or stated this anywhere, but I apologize for the confusion if you chose to interpret it that way.

 

50 minutes ago, Infinityward said:

nor is it a justification for the invasion

You sort of just grazed over this, but I would love to hear your stance on this as I might be a little retarded and don't see this as immediately self evident. I'm in the deep ocean at this point but I'm going to make this ridiculous comparison as people seem to have a hard time internalizing things so far away or trying to reason through actions committed by a person/country they've mentally equated to Darth Vader. If Mexican Police or the Cartel started gunning down American tourists en masse at resorts would it be out of the question for America to seek some sort of reprisal or rescue? Many of the ethnic Russians slaughtered in Ukraine have family in Russia, friends, many of them live in a portion of the country that has been part of Russia, culturally and politically since they were born and long before. When the coup happened and they declared independence, they sought to form a government that would represent them, that would respect their culture and their wishes. In response, tanks rolled on them.

 

1 hour ago, Infinityward said:

You're so incredibly quick to believe an accusation of Ukrainians committing war crimes but when Russia is accused you find some dumb-ass Twitter account that makes an equally dumb argument

Nowhere in my post did I state that this was the case. I said it was an equally or more likely explanation (which it is) which is entirely different from declaring it as the truth. A concept you could stand to grasp AS THE MAJORITY OF ARTICLES YOU ARE READING ARE DOING THE SAME THING. Is there a reason you think that some rando on Twitter is any less credible when drawing a conclusion and citing the same evidence. Do journalists have some access to secret source they won't cite for reasons? Are they less likely to be a paid shill (that is literally their job if you forgot)? Or does the prestige of The Washington Post immediately make them more credible when citing the exact same source.

 

1 hour ago, Infinityward said:

Also stop trying to act as if you've been studying Ukrainian-Russian history for the past 10 years

I don't think I said this anywhere. I talked to a native Ukrainian, in providing aid to his village and friends I was able to talk to many other native Ukrainians currently in the country. I don't think this makes me any more educated than anyone else posting here, but it offered some perspective that helped me personally feel more confident in understanding parts of the conflict, regardless of whether or not that is the case. Something I'd encourage you or anyone else here to do if you have the opportunity.  

 

1 hour ago, Infinityward said:

You're literally a joke, every single argument you've pulled out are literally Russia Today talking points

I don't watch or read RT, but I would find it pretty humorous if that was actually the case by pure coincidence.

 

1 hour ago, Infinityward said:

Not sure if you know this but literally everyone thinks you've gone off the deep end and with every post you prove it more and more.

Thanks for catching me up, I was unaware. I don't rely on internet validation and the TV to know what to think, but I appreciate the note anyways. I've been playing devil's advocate since day one and I intend to do so as long as you keep providing weak points and bad sources. If you're unable to discern someone picking apart your arguments from standing counter to you, that's on you, but I'm not going to hold that against you.

 

56 minutes ago, Korean Ninja said:

if you question EVERY news source because it doesn't fit your point, it's not a problem with credibility of source, its a problem with you

Would you tell the same to someone living in North Korea or Russia at the moment if they tried to make the same case the majority of the people in this thread are about Ukraine? I think at some point, a countries vested interested in a cause, knowingly or otherwise, can often override it's commitment to providing factual and unbiased coverage. This conflict has been the tipping point for me. The amount of information knowingly obscured, twisted, or fabricated by sources that would otherwise be considered credible is ridiculous. Do I think that discredits them entirely or that they can't be trusted on anything? No, most of them are pretty good about domestic affairs even if they tend to routinely slip their own biases in. I just think that it's very difficult to find any of them that can be trusted to give you a good picture of this particular conflict, especially if they are encouraging you to support America sticking their finger into this pie or, God forbid, actually get involved.

 

20 minutes ago, James said:

Of course, civilians in Bucha, that have their hands tied up behind them and shot in the back of the head totally weren't executed. Jesus Christ.

Source? I've yet to see any evidence of gunshot wounds, but I'd be concede if there is actually proof of this. The majority of the images from Bucha are able to be cross referenced with the satellite imagery, so hopefully this would be the case too.

[James]

2 minutes ago, Gentoo said:

No, the majority of images from the city clearly show most bodies without their hands tied in close proximity to shelling craters, damage, debris. 

 

Source: image. Not a video not an account. A picture of bodies. Any forensics or corroborating evidence? Is there a reason all of the restraints are made up of white cloth (potentially the armbands worn in Russian occupied areas) and what appears to be trash and other ground debris in place of zip ties, handcuffs, duct tape, or anything more likely that Russians in a heavily occupied area would have access to? Going to swan dive off the deep end hear and ask you for an explanation why this caption is any more plausible than Ukrainians crafting a false flag from the situation.

 

No, nowhere did I state or imply this. You responded to one of my counterpoints in response to your list of reasons why Russia is very obviously big bad guy (when Ukraine has and is actively doing just about all of the things you mentioned), and I am urging you not to pull shoddily crafted stories out without acknowledging the multitude of attacks against civilians by Ukraine prior to and during the invasion as well as war crimes committed prior to and during.

 

I don't think I implied or stated this anywhere, but I apologize for the confusion if you chose to interpret it that way.

 

You sort of just grazed over this, but I would love to hear your stance on this as I might be a little retarded and don't see this as immediately self evident. I'm in the deep ocean at this point but I'm going to make this ridiculous comparison as people seem to have a hard time internalizing things so far away or trying to reason through actions committed by a person/country they've mentally equated to Darth Vader. If Mexican Police or the Cartel started gunning down American tourists en masse at resorts would it be out of the question for America to seek some sort of reprisal or rescue? Many of the ethnic Russians slaughtered in Ukraine have family in Russia, friends, many of them live in a portion of the country that has been part of Russia, culturally and politically since they were born and long before. When the coup happened and they declared independence, they sought to form a government that would represent them, that would respect their culture and their wishes. In response, tanks rolled on them.

 

Nowhere in my post did I state that this was the case. I said it was an equally or more likely explanation (which it is) which is entirely different from declaring it as the truth. A concept you could stand to grasp AS THE MAJORITY OF ARTICLES YOU ARE READING ARE DOING THE SAME THING. Is there a reason you think that some rando on Twitter is any less credible when drawing a conclusion and citing the same evidence. Do journalists have some access to secret source they won't cite for reasons? Are they less likely to be a paid shill (that is literally their job if you forgot)? Or does the prestige of The Washington Post immediately make them more credible when citing the exact same source.

 

I don't think I said this anywhere. I talked to a native Ukrainian, in providing aid to his village and friends I was able to talk to many other native Ukrainians currently in the country. I don't think this makes me any more educated than anyone else posting here, but it offered some perspective that helped me personally feel more confident in understanding parts of the conflict, regardless of whether or not that is the case. Something I'd encourage you or anyone else here to do if you have the opportunity.  

 

I don't watch or read RT, but I would find it pretty humorous if that was actually the case by pure coincidence.

 

Thanks for catching me up, I was unaware. I don't rely on internet validation and the TV to know what to think, but I appreciate the note anyways. I've been playing devil's advocate since day one and I intend to do so as long as you keep providing weak points and bad sources. If you're unable to discern someone picking apart your arguments from standing counter to you, that's on you, but I'm not going to hold that against you.

 

Would you tell the same to someone living in North Korea or Russia at the moment if they tried to make the same case the majority of the people in this thread are about Ukraine? I think at some point, a countries vested interested in a cause, knowingly or otherwise, can often override it's commitment to providing factual and unbiased coverage. This conflict has been the tipping point for me. The amount of information knowingly obscured, twisted, or fabricated by sources that would otherwise be considered credible is ridiculous. Do I think that discredits them entirely or that they can't be trusted on anything? No, most of them are pretty good about domestic affairs even if they tend to routinely slip their own biases in. I just think that it's very difficult to find any of them that can be trusted to give you a good picture of this particular conflict, especially if they are encouraging you to support America sticking their finger into this pie or, God forbid, actually get involved.

 

Source? I've yet to see any evidence of gunshot wounds, but I'd be concede if there is actually proof of this. The majority of the images from Bucha are able to be cross referenced with the satellite imagery, so hopefully this would be the case too.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-street-corpse-with-hands-bound-bullet-wound-head-2022-04-03/

 

There's your fucking source,  if you don't trust Reuters, that's your damn problem.

[Kieran]

You guys just don't get it man, you're citing untrustworthy news sources! You guys need to learn from Gentoo and cite actual news sources, like twitter threads from random accounts.

[crazedkangaroo]

13 minutes ago, Kieran said:

You guys just don't get it man, you're citing untrustworthy news sources! You guys need to learn from Gentoo and cite actual news sources, like twitter threads from random accounts.

@antiwar_soldier with their 2000 Twitter followers really cracked this whole situation open and got down to the cold hard truth. Thanks @antiwar_soldier

[BoM]

23 minutes ago, Gentoo said:

Thanks for catching me up, I was unaware. I don't rely on internet validation and the TV to know what to think, but I appreciate the note anyways. I've been playing devil's advocate since day one and I intend to do so as long as you keep providing weak points and bad sources. If you're unable to discern someone picking apart your arguments from standing counter to you, that's on you, but I'm not going to hold that against you.

Of course you're just playing devil's advocate yes yes...it doesn't in any way reflect the stance you have on the situation...in turn making you look kind of like stupid...ignorant...Soviet Russia sided...possible red spy...Putin confidante...might have a mail order bride vibe thing going on. It looks really bad. You say you don't care but you keep responding...and you look like an ass for it.

 

Interesting.

[Korean Ninja]

16 minutes ago, Gentoo said:

Would you tell the same to someone living in North Korea or Russia at the moment if they tried to make the same case the majority of the people in this thread are about Ukraine? I think at some point, a countries vested interested in a cause, knowingly or otherwise, can often override it's commitment to providing factual and unbiased coverage. This conflict has been the tipping point for me. The amount of information knowingly obscured, twisted, or fabricated by sources that would otherwise be considered credible is ridiculous. Do I think that discredits them entirely or that they can't be trusted on anything? No, most of them are pretty good about domestic affairs even if they tend to routinely slip their own biases in. I just think that it's very difficult to find any of them that can be trusted to give you a good picture of this particular conflict, especially if they are encouraging you to support America sticking their finger into this pie or, God forbid, actually get involved.

 

 

I'll bite.

 

So you're saying, that a country whose media is, quite literally, dominated by dictators aren't going to have the same level of AVAILABLE CREDIBLE sources as any country that ISN'T democratically ruled? Holy shit! Color me surprised. At the same time you bring up North Korea, do you know how they feel about the conflict? Fuck no, you don't speak for North Koreans, I don't speak for North Koreans, so stop with the whataboutism; it's a pathetic way to prove your point 

 

My guy, if you're looking for a clear picture in a fucking war, you've not been paying attention. Yet the media that has been painting a clear as possible picture for you is being ignored BY you. Where is the disinformation, show it to me. If you think that there is vast disinformation, post it all here. I am willing to give you 5 bucks for every 5 sources that is genuinely disingenuous

[Dom]

[All Ts]

There was no impending victory but it's impressive how they've managed to pump up the ruble to higher than pre-invasion value. Holy fucking shit to the gas & diesel prices here in NY as well. To be honest although I think the US has good reason to get involved here, (I don't want to reiterate my total & full support for Ukraine) but people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

COVID has both expanded & exposed the huge bubble in the US' economy. On the cusp of our economy returning to somewhat normalcy we're now having to fight the headwinds of this war & it's going to seriously affect the Fed's ability to fight inflation in any meaningful way. This could be a really rough, really long recession and given that we're already firing on all cylinders & have been since 2008- I'm pretty concerned. What will the US do if this situation gets more dire? The US has spent every year since 2008 worrying about anything but us having a healthy, real economy & opted to kick the proverbial can down the road. At some point we're going to kick it off a cliff, and it's starting to look increasingly like we're on a wide swing towards unprecedented extremism or wide-spread poverty if our populace doesn't take the issue more seriously. As I said in March when this all started, noone is going to win this war and the only outcome that we can possibly hope for is it for it to end. Any silver lining or permanent restructuring people will claim is occurring or will occur is complete & utter bullshit.