Mass Shootings, American Pride, Gun Laws...

[jazzy]

  On 6/6/2022 at 2:28 PM, kabLe said:

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Ok, because you don't understand, here is a tree diagram:

•  Democracy
  • Direct Democracy
    • (nobody exists here)
  • Representative democracy
    • 200 versions of parliaments, republics, etc
    • Federal presidential republic
      • United States of America
  • Many other types of democracies

Do you understand why the US is a "democracy" now?

 

[kabLe]

  On 6/6/2022 at 2:43 PM, jazzy said:

Ok, because you don't understand, here is a tree diagram:

•  Democracy
  • Direct Democracy
    • (nobody exists here)
  • Representative democracy
    • 200 versions of parliaments, republics, etc
    • Federal presidential republic
      • United States of America
  • Many other types of democracies

Do you understand why the US is a "democracy" now?

 

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Nice tree though

[jazzy]

  On 6/6/2022 at 2:49 PM, kabLe said:

 

Nice tree though

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Are you confused by my tree diagram or something? I'm telling you that America is a federal presidential republic, which runs on democracy. It's a democracy. Who's close minded again?

[kabLe]

  On 6/6/2022 at 2:59 PM, jazzy said:

Are you confused by my tree diagram or something? I'm telling you that America is a federal presidential republic, which runs on democracy. It's a democracy. Who's close minded again?

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But we are not a democracy? It's not close minded. I'm not drawing based on opinion or interpretation. I looked it up and we are not a democratic form of government.

[BoM]

  On 6/6/2022 at 3:01 PM, kabLe said:

But we are not a democracy? It's not close minded. I'm not drawing based on opinion or interpretation. I looked it up and we are not a democratic form of government.

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Quick info for those actually trying to argue this...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The United States is a democracy, since we, the people, hold the ultimate political power. We’re not a “direct democracy,” but we are a “representative democracy.”

 

This is where our history education might add some confusion. We are commonly taught that democracy is a product of ancient Greece. It’s their word – demokratia – after all. The city-state of Athens is credited with implementing a system of government of and by the people, whereby eligible citizens would congregate to make decisions. They’d make these decisions themselves (or “directly”), not through any elected representatives.

 

That system of government, better understood today as direct democracy, lives on in the United States in the form of ballot initiatives and referenda. Some states and localities afford their citizens the right to use these measures to directly enact, change, or repeal laws themselves.

 

More commonly, we exercise our political power in a different way: by voting in elections to choose our representatives. That’s representative democracy.

 

The Constitution does not use the term “democracy.” It’s true. But as Eugene Volokh notes in the Washington Post, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Noah Webster, Justice James Wilson and Chief Justice John Marshall all used the word. These scholars understood representative democracy – the American variety – to be democracy all the same.

 

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The United States is a republic because our elected representatives exercise political power.

 

History also tells us that Rome was a republic, unlike Athens. When its monarchy was overthrown, Rome developed a republican system of government whereby citizens elected officials who were empowered to make decisions for the public. That’s the core of how our government works. While “democracy” and “republic” have been historically pitted against one another, the reality is that the two terms enjoy considerable overlap.

 

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To be very specific, the United States could be defined as a “federal constitutional representative democracy.” You might also call it a “federal constitutional republic.” Let’s break those terms down.

 

Constitutional: Our system of government is considered constitutional, because the power exercised by the people and their representatives is bound by the constitution and the broader rule of law.

 

Federal: Our government is also a federal system, since power is shared between a national government, representing the entire populace, and regional and local governments.

 

These two terms can come in handy when you want to get really exact with your description. It’s accurate to call our government a “federal constitutional republic” or a “federal constitutional democracy,” but it’s probably overkill to be that specific. These terms just help us further define our governmental structure, especially when comparing the United States to other countries.

 

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Is the United States still a democracy?

 

In the literal sense of the word, yes. In practice, the answer is more complicated. In 2016, The Economist Intelligence Unit downgraded the United States from a “full democracy” to a “flawed democracy” in its Democracy Report, an annual study of the “state of democracy” around the world.

 

There were a number of reasons the nation’s rating fell, but one of the most important was the American public’s declining trust in government. Our system of government depends on citizens being able to freely elect leaders who will represent their interests. Unfortunately, that doesn’t always happen. In a study published 2014, two political scientists found that, on average, the policies representatives pursue are not in fact dictated by public opinion. This is the mark of a flawed democracy/republic: election without true representation.

 

In 2021, the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance (IDEA) classified the United States as a "backsliding democracy" for the first time.

 

 

[kabLe]

  On 6/6/2022 at 3:25 PM, BoM said:

Quick info for those actually trying to argue this...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The United States is a democracy, since we, the people, hold the ultimate political power. We’re not a “direct democracy,” but we are a “representative democracy.”

This is where our history education might add some confusion. We are commonly taught that democracy is a product of ancient Greece. It’s their word – demokratia – after all. The city-state of Athens is credited with implementing a system of government of and by the people, whereby eligible citizens would congregate to make decisions. They’d make these decisions themselves (or “directly”), not through any elected representatives.

 

That system of government, better understood today as direct democracy, lives on in the United States in the form of ballot initiatives and referenda. Some states and localities afford their citizens the right to use these measures to directly enact, change, or repeal laws themselves.

 

More commonly, we exercise our political power in a different way: by voting in elections to choose our representatives. That’s representative democracy.

 

The Constitution does not use the term “democracy.” It’s true. But as Eugene Volokh notes in the Washington Post, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Noah Webster, Justice James Wilson and Chief Justice John Marshall all used the word. These scholars understood representative democracy – the American variety – to be democracy all the same.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The United States is a republic because our elected representatives exercise political power.

 

History also tells us that Rome was a republic, unlike Athens. When its monarchy was overthrown, Rome developed a republican system of government whereby citizens elected officials who were empowered to make decisions for the public. That’s the core of how our government works. While “democracy” and “republic” have been historically pitted against one another, the reality is that the two terms enjoy considerable overlap.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

To be very specific, the United States could be defined as a “federal constitutional representative democracy.” You might also call it a “federal constitutional republic.” Let’s break those terms down.

 

Constitutional: Our system of government is considered constitutional, because the power exercised by the people and their representatives is bound by the constitution and the broader rule of law.

 

Federal: Our government is also a federal system, since power is shared between a national government, representing the entire populace, and regional and local governments.

 

These two terms can come in handy when you want to get really exact with your description. It’s accurate to call our government a “federal constitutional republic” or a “federal constitutional democracy,” but it’s probably overkill to be that specific. These terms just help us further define our governmental structure, especially when comparing the United States to other countries.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Is the United States still a democracy?

 

In the literal sense of the word, yes. In practice, the answer is more complicated. In 2016, The Economist Intelligence Unit downgraded the United States from a “full democracy” to a “flawed democracy” in its Democracy Report, an annual study of the “state of democracy” around the world.

 

There were a number of reasons the nation’s rating fell, but one of the most important was the American public’s declining trust in government. Our system of government depends on citizens being able to freely elect leaders who will represent their interests. Unfortunately, that doesn’t always happen. In a study published 2014, two political scientists found that, on average, the policies representatives pursue are not in fact dictated by public opinion. This is the mark of a flawed democracy/republic: election without true representation.

 

In 2021, the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance (IDEA) classified the United States as a "backsliding democracy" for the first time.

 

 

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Seems like we were both correct based on this. However I have a feeling jazzy will come in and tell me I'm severely wrong and we are only a democracy. But I'm willing to concede that I was half wrong based on the information I looked up versus what @BoMprovided.

 

My overall point is that we are still different from other countries, that is an undeniable fact. What works in China isn't going to work in the USA. You argument was that it works in the rest of the world so then it would work here without considering any other variables. What worked in another country for them doesn't mean it's going to work here. If you aren't willing to accept that then yes you are being close minded as you are not considering other perspectives or the fact that culture, lifestyle, values, etc would have something to do with if banning guns would work in America or not.

 

I'm perfectly willing to concede that there is a possibility that it does work and everything works out for the best however I'm also willing to look at the other side and give it more thought than simply, banning guns = less gun violence. For all you know banning guns = south says no and starts civil war. If they were willing to start a civil war over slavery which they viewed as they had a fundamental right to own slaves as they were their property, what makes you think it would be any different with guns? Are you willing to gamble a civil war on that? If you are, kudos to you for being stagnant in your beliefs not many people can do that, however I have a feeling the bloodshed from a Civil War will quickly out pace every mass shooting event put together. You should at least concede that banning guns could have a net negative effect on the country overall rather than lets just get rid of gun violence.

[BoM]

Drew this myself 

 

[Gentoo]

  On 6/7/2022 at 4:35 PM, BoM said:

Drew this myself 

 

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FTFY

[BoM]

  On 6/7/2022 at 4:48 PM, Gentoo said:

FTFY

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You know I hate your anti-psych med rhetoric because 95% of the time it's what is best for someone suffering anything beyond low level anxiety or depression, but where you really lost me is the CIA part. This a conspiracy I don't know about?

[Gentoo]

  On 6/7/2022 at 4:59 PM, BoM said:

You know I hate your anti-psych med rhetoric because 95% of the time it's what is best for someone suffering anything beyond low level anxiety or depression, but where you really lost me is the CIA part. This a conspiracy I don't know about?

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You don't remember people saying Sandy Hook was staged/planned and every shooting since? How every shooter has been on psychoactives?

 

On a serious note, I don't actually believe any of that garbage I just think it's funny

 

I do still think it's unethical to tell hundreds of thousands of children their suffering is a result of a brain defect and they need to permanently alter it's chemistry rather than just admitting it's a rational outcome of living in inhuman conditions. Make a thread of it grinds your gears that hard.